Anne Arbon Isn't Encouraging Prey-making urges dangerous?

I dont fully understand why this method of training works, but I have a rescue collie,he had 8 homes before he was 7months old, a very high drive dog. But since I have allowed the tug games, and him to win, and push feeding, all of the undesirable behaviour, ie., excessive barking, frantic biting, has all diminished, I am not saying is calm, but it is all contained, and liveable with, he actually sleeps for more than 1 hour. He is a pleasure to live with. Thanks Neil regards Anne

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christine randolph I agree there is energy - everything does have energy - but there are also plain old basic learning principles that have been around for a long time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_(biology) it says on above web site that DNA cells are usually circular. ...(i know i know "circular" is not "sperical"...) i think proto-cells change their shape like an amoeba. neurons look a bit like trees. if they distend, i think this could indicate that they are degenerating/dying, i.e.from BSE ?

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christine randolph Kevin Behan Playing Tug with Big Black Dog

related to lying down, i was at the xcountry dog trail today.I ski, the dogs run off leash. one of my dogs found a bone and was guarding it instead of coming to the car when i wanted to leave. i lay down in the snow about 50 meters away and rolled myself towards the dog.for whatever reason he did not perceive me as a threat, maybe also because my eyes were not focussed on him by virtue of rolling around like a rolling pin when i was close enough i could take the bone and take him by the collar, then get up and take him to the car. he had absolutely no reaction to this, was docile. if i had just walked to him he would have jumped away and run with his bone. (combination of play and guarding the bone)

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kbehan Pushing with a Pit Bull

Before this Minky established a very strong push and in this sequence, Minky has so much energy that he's finding it hard to focus so I'm allowing him to learn he's wasting energy by being so hectic, by loading up and then unloading in a big pulse. I'm also allowing him to learn to focus on his gut-brain so as to collect himself and start to study my body movements with discrimination to know when he should exert himself. This collected focus will allow him to learn how to align with me and walk calmly next to me, even when energized.

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Alec Pushing with a Pit Bull

In this video you move away as the dog tries to jump up not allowing him to make contact. Are you trying to increase his drive, trying to make him wait for you to call him, or something else?

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AZdogerman Kevin Behan Playing Tug with Big Black Dog

Ok thanks for all the info! I do like to get rowdy I think its fun and I'm amazed at her bite discrimination and being at the center of so much energy. So I will work on the aforementioned things. I will also be happy to be her moose if she learns to discern between people who want to be rough and those that don't.

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Heather Kevin Behan Playing Tug with Big Black Dog

Happy likes it a lot if I lose my balance and fall - and is much more responsive to me after that if I play with him on the ground. He doesn't seem to get overexcited.

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kbehan Pushing with a Pit Bull

A hungry dog is a happy dog. Keep on Pushing Minky!

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kbehan Set Your Moose Loose: I am not a moose, my dog is not a wolf and he doesn't think I am a moose

Right, the form of the prey destabilizes the balance circuitry and so now the wolf needs grounding and feels compelled TO MAKE CONTACT with the moose. If the moose does nothing its predatory aspect reflects the projected emotion back onto the wolves and this triggers their physical memory of their mother putting a whooping on them and so this brings fear to the surface and the moose is safe. If the wolves can sustain their Drive To Make Contact because the physical memory of grounding might also come on line, (and exactly right, the hungrier they are, the more they will reference the little-brain-in-the-gut and so the more they can offset fear and project this right back onto moose.) If moose can't handle this intensification of THE CHARGE, then it starts to feel a disconnect within its own body/mind and becomes nervous, i.e. its balance circuitry starts to hyper act and now it wants to move from this ungrounded place. The wolves now sense this unease, imbalance, dis-ease, and begin to press in and circle AROUND and behind the moose, their DRIVE energy is deflected by the magnetic component contributed by hunger circuitry. Now Moose is at risk of becoming completely con-fused, actually disconnected from its "self;" its connection to its own physical c-o-g, the core of its animal consciousness and might begin to panic. At some point, its predatory aspect BECOMES a stimulant, rather than an inhibitor, and wolves close in for strong bites and perhaps even grip it by the nose. And what is the rubbery snout/muzzle of a moose for a wolf? Its mother's nipple. When they have the moose by the nose then they have leverage over its body. Good luck with the "hunt" for the dog property. You're exactly right, the strength of a desire begins to convert sterile inputs into prey values.

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kbehan Kevin Behan Playing Tug with Big Black Dog

Yes, the risk is that the "negative" (eyes) collapses the elaboration process into a behavior and this could happen before you get to a full blown drive expression, so you don't want to get to this step too soon. The dog is always giving your eyes credit, it's always aware of your negative even when it isn't looking at you so there's no need to make an overt issue of it that can collapse the emotional state into an action prematurely. It's very easy to tack it on at the end and make it an overt behavior. Yes, if you feel your dog's drive is strong enough in the push, and you've got a good bark going, you can throw the bark into the mix whenever you want in order to make the elaboration process more and more complex. The more complex the behavior, the more energy it can channel (as long as there is no loss of emotional velocity.) Yes, you can let dog bring you to the ground. (I only recommend this for people who love to be physical with a dog. So if someone in the family is physical, and someone isn't, that makes it easier for the dog to learn to discriminate between the two, just like we can learn who to joke around and don't need to push the buttons of someone who is "touchy" by virtue of experiencing the fun of joking around with the kind of a person who is receptive to that stuff. So if someone doesn't like being physical, don't feel the need to be that way if the dog is getting its ya-yas out with someone who is. The dog can easily discern the distinction.) I also put on my coveralls, my hooded sweatshirt and then I like to cover up the bite object on the ground and have the dog overpower my form to get to the essence.

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Sylvia Spain Pushing with a Pit Bull

Hi Kevin! Hey, that's my dog, Minky the extreme food motivated pit bull @ the NDT seminar @ the Orvis center in Manchester VT a couple summers ago. As you can see, this dog is all muscles - and boy is he attracted to Kevin B! Mink is a super social, happy dog and lately we have been doing a lot of work using long leash and off leash at the farm, working on recall and maintaining a strong bond across distance. Every famous trainer needs at least one pitbull in the crew, (I saw that even Ian Dunbar is hanging out with a big Blue pit, ha) so if you ever want to borrow the Minkster again, Kevin, he would LOVE to see ya.

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kbehan Set Your Moose Loose: I am not a moose, my dog is not a wolf and he doesn't think I am a moose

Exactly, all R cares about is whether he ends up in a grounded state or not and that becomes in his mind WHAT KILLING A SQUIRREL FEELS LIKE. He has no abstract goal in mind, only to return energy/drive to ground, or neutral. He then gives your "negative" credit for that happy state of affairs which means that his emotional bond with you, i.e. the energy connection between R and Connie, can now begin to conduct "squirrel energy." Eventually, BEING WITH CONNIE becomes what killing a squirrel feels like. You can get what you want, control over R, and R can get what he wants, feeling grounded and connected. Not only that, but since dogs (whether they seem to manifest prey instinct or not to the untrained eye), are all invested with moose energy and so chasing squirrels is inherently frustrating even if they get one from time to time. There's just not enough resistance value. So by making the dog work harder and harder to get the toy from you, R gets more fulfillment by overcoming this resistance that activates its battery, to then be grounded into its owner as "the-moose" than by chasing squirrels. Drive is simply magic, and no "magical thinking" is involved. (I will post an article soon entitled "Training Squirrel Dog" to lay out the steps of progression now that you've gotten R to bite toy in presence of squirrels.)

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connie Set Your Moose Loose: I am not a moose, my dog is not a wolf and he doesn't think I am a moose

Something like this, in more rudimentary terms, finally dawned on me recently. :) My young Border Collie goes into a crouch and starts bark-screaming when he sees a squirrel while he's on leash. I'm working the NDT program and getting R (the dog) to turn that energy to me, and in explaining it to another dog owner I said 'we think that R has a purpose, that he wants to chase the squirrel, catch the squirrel, and kill the squirrel; but all R really knows is that he's got a ton of energy and drive all built up and it needs to be discharged, and that's what I'm training him to do -- discharge that by contacting with me and grabbing a toy.' R isn't thinking 'well crap, I really wanted to kill that squirrel and I have to make do with this dumb rope tug' -- I don't think he's thinking at all, I think he's feeling, and he feels energy flow when he jumps up and pushes me and grabs the toy. Then he's calm and we continue with the walk and look for the next squirrel. LOL! But yes, I did finally figure out that I, the human, am making a bunch of assumptions, connecting behaviors and such, that my dog is absolutely not making.

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AZDogerman Kevin Behan Playing Tug with Big Black Dog

Regarding comment 32, you stated that asking the dog for "eyes" when a deer is around should been done at the end of training, is this because asking for "eyes" is an interruption of drive for a dog who cannot fully give its owner all its energy? But for a developed drive it signals to the dog that moose energy is on the way? Would it be ok to hold food high on my chest, ask for push and then ask for bark while dog is in contact and then commence to push for food? I read that you wrote that wolves want to bring the moose to ground, could we as handlers adapt this into pushing? For instance, dog gives good push and then handler falls backwards onto the ground? Thanks!

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christine randolph Set Your Moose Loose: I am not a moose, my dog is not a wolf and he doesn't think I am a moose

so you say, that the "survival instinct" is not something the wolf experiences, they are motivated by Get to the Prey instinct, which then leads to a chain reaction, in other words, the wolf does not desire to eat/survive during the initial stages of the hunt, but survival is the result. we know that if they have not eaten their behaviours are more forceful, but that is just another feedback loop they are not aware of I guess. the thing is though, they will only hunt moose if they are in a group, otherwise it is rats, rabbits, flies (one of my dogs gets preyful for flies, hornets, etc..) would young wolves also see their parents as "the moose" when these parents teach them how to hunt ? even if they are all grown up but still adolescent in behaviour ? (i would rather be mother wolf playing the moose...) i was thinking about how much preyfulness is left in humans. it is very sublimated indeed. for a few months now, i have been "house hunting" in north-east washington state (south of the border with canada where we have our primary residence) for a vacation spot. I call it a DOG property. i want a huge fenced area for playing with the dogs... I feel the essence of the hunt in this activity, i.e. the excitement of seeing something on the internet that might fit our criteria etc. it is not as primal as the activities of animals who do not have the self awareness we humans have. i think humans should get their dogs AND themselves in touch with predatory elements in their psyche. there is no denying that we are predators, even though we can act so pacifistic, altruistic, etc. people also need to see others as predators more than they currently do, and be more careful. even if someone wears a suit and tie and sound as though they know what they are talking about i.e. those who want them to take out a mortgage when they cannot afford it..predatory lending... lots of foreclosures and bank owned properties out there, the prices are still going down...

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christine randolph Trick Training Run Amok

i just went to see the wolf sanctuary in Golden B.C. i learned that coyotes and wolves interbreed in the wild and so, this causes another problem when someone wants to protect wolves: it is not easy to tell a coyotes apart from a wolf and a coyote-wolf hybrid (or dingo jackal etc. hybrid) I also had an idea: that humans should re-do the wolf-to-dog breeding experiment and make a new set of dogs from wolf babies like our neanderthal or whatever ancestors did... just to see what kind of dogs we get in a do-over, maybe very different dogs !!!

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christine randolph Indy and Milo Recreate the Past

yay ! I think Happy would be OK with a little dog, but then I am far away and do not have to become nervous when I watch the encounter

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Valerie and Eka Crate Duty

Oh my goodness! 1.5 days of more or less consistent indoor crating and I can already tell a difference! She's more engaged outside, she is more consistently eating the food in my hand instead of sniffing and rejecting it if there is only kibble and no 'amendment' (turkey bacon, chicken, turkey, whatever it takes). She actually brought toys to me a couple of times which she hadn't really done before. And when she wins her tug toy she really shakes it good, more than I've ever seen her do before. The first day I had a ton of questions but the two that stand out are about when at the crate and I pull on the lead to get her to choose to go into the crate I pull on the lead and move my hand into the crate. There is this obvious line going from her to my hand in the crate and I'm not very subtle at it yet. And then I just kind of sit there while she pulls back. And she resists for a good minute. Does she really not know that my hand is causing the discomfort? And then when we're outside and we get going with everything and *I* need a break she is humping me more and more and wants to bite the sleeve of my jacket. What should I do? Praise her? Turn it into a push game? Just relax and try to be uninteresting until she stops? She's not really interesting in biting any of the toys I've tried at those moments. And I feel so much more sane not trying to be the goalie of the toys of twin boys and a mother who does not want to have to keep her bags off the floor. Oh and Heather said: ========== I know you reiterate these things over and over on your site and via the discussions, and also in the book, but still I think it is not easy to grasp the big picture. Also it is easier now to understand how it is always important to keep pushing, playing, keep the lines of communication open that way. ========= I definitely know what you mean. I'm just now getting the crate thing and I want to say "Why were you keeping this from me?!" But there is crate stuff talked about in various places but I wasn't getting it and I had mixed feelings about crating. Then the frustration of another decapitated Iron Man, and almost chewed through shoe strap pushed me over.

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Heather Crate Duty

In your book you mention how it is important for a dog for his master to be decisive and sensitive...I think I had trouble with the decisive part, because I wasn't really clear about what the goal was. It's not that you didn't do a good job of explaining the goal, or that the goal is too complex, I just didn't really grasp it.

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Heather Crate Duty

Looking back I can see the situation I was struggling with more clearly. I wanted to "do" something about it when Happy got overexcited/overloaded and jumped and grabbed at me, but at 5 or 6 months when I started seeing the behavior, he was not ready or capable of putting that energy into the "group mood," so there was absolutely nothing I could or should have done except to avoid putting him in situations that were too stimulating. Also the pushing to attract his energy, build trust, and stopping formally "teaching" him, which was working in opposition to the pushing by adding to my "resistive" value. From an energy standpoint it is not a bad thing that his instinct is to ground his stress energy that way, right? (perhaps better than out into the environment, other dogs, escaping)...just that it would not be desirable for that to become a strong channel/habit. The job for me then as he is getting older now and I am really noticing that we have this shared emotion/group mood, and Happy is feeling it too, is to recognize but not struggle with Happy when his energy isn't flowing there (it's easy to recognize with him at least, and Happy is able to understand instantly that it doesn't make me feel good), to just get the energy flowing there again. It feels a lot better than simply unloading stress energy. So I can see how being positive (or negative, or calm assertive, or really anything) can still be a struggle - anything that that interrupts or doesn't lead to the flow of group energy vs. increasing it would be inappropriate, or at least be missing the golden opportunity for real learning in that moment. I know you reiterate these things over and over on your site and via the discussions, and also in the book, but still I think it is not easy to grasp the big picture. Also it is easier now to understand how it is always important to keep pushing, playing, keep the lines of communication open that way.

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kbehan I agree there is energy - everything does have energy - but there are also plain old basic learning principles that have been around for a long time.

Good point. The statement was made by Stuart Kaufman in "Origins of Order" and I presume he was talking about the proto-cells from which more specialized cells evolved. I'm curious now what makes neurons able to distend.

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AZDogerman Behan is too new-agey in his explanations to be taken seriously. He also dismisses large tracks of learning theory and psychology and ethology. He prefers undefined explanations like "emotional circuitry of dog and owner" Frankly I tend to dismiss and distrust anyone that talks about 'energy' or 'vibrations' to explain animal behavior.

Yes I like the new Buzz too, it's got a nice vibe.

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Sondra Behan is too new-agey in his explanations to be taken seriously. He also dismisses large tracks of learning theory and psychology and ethology. He prefers undefined explanations like "emotional circuitry of dog and owner" Frankly I tend to dismiss and distrust anyone that talks about 'energy' or 'vibrations' to explain animal behavior.

Haha, that was all Sean. Pretty good, huh? :)

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Lee Charles Kelley I agree there is energy - everything does have energy - but there are also plain old basic learning principles that have been around for a long time.

KB: "In biology we see that the principles of energy predetermine that all cells must be spherical." I don't know enough about biology to say this for certain, but it seems to me that not all cells are spherical. Most neurons aren't, or don't they count as cells? And how the principles of energy predetermine that most cells are spherical, while neurons aren't? Just curious, LCK

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Lee Charles Kelley Behan is too new-agey in his explanations to be taken seriously. He also dismisses large tracks of learning theory and psychology and ethology. He prefers undefined explanations like "emotional circuitry of dog and owner" Frankly I tend to dismiss and distrust anyone that talks about 'energy' or 'vibrations' to explain animal behavior.

I love this new feature on your website! It is absolutely fantastic! One could get "lost" for days, happily going through everything "The Buzz" has to offer. Whoever came up with this idea (Sondra? Sean? Kevin himself?) should get a raise! LCK

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Heather Crate Duty

Thank you for the instructions, this is going to be excellent.

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Heather Crate Duty

--So you can make a test and let the thing start and see if the dog can get itself out of situation the goal being for you to do as little as you can get away with-- We did this today so well - it felt really good, much better than instructing Happy what to do/not do - I took Happy with the kids and the much-coveted BACKPACKS to the end of the driveway to get the bus. Happy milled around the kids, found sticks...once he went for the backpack pulls (backpack was on my son at the time, he is good at not reacting), and me just moving toward the toy on the ground got him focused on it for a tug, then back to milling with the kids, it was very nice. Right after this we did our walk, then a super energetic tug/push, and he's been out cold for 4 hours.

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Heather Crate Duty

"Often one has to go through a personal crisis themselves because emotion is a group medium" Definitely. How many times I have wished this past year (not really understanding what I was wishing for at the time) my puppy was the defensively hyper-friendly type, which is really what most puppies that "fit right into" home life are demonstrating. And of course it's about me and my own way of being, Happy's fine the way he is, in fact he's got a better temperament than me :) He's just needing me to trust him so he can trust me and then I can be the ground for his energy...I can see and feel it clearly, I'm sure we're on the right path. Thank you very much as always! It is probably harder working with the people than the dogs?

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kbehan Crate Duty

First, do pushing exercise with kids at various peaks of play intensity. Their job is to generate precise degrees of energy. Then, holding Happy or securing Happy to a post, the kids bobble the "sacred bite object" that Happy never sees except for training, for example a hearty rope tug. The kids ask Happy to bark and then throw tug toy into range and Happy can get it and is now allowed to run on lead with toy in mouth. Next the kids break out their toys and the goal is for Happy to channel this charge into the bite object in mouth. There should be a light cord secured to rope toy so that after kids toss each other the ball they're playing with, they can from time to time tug on Happy's tug-toy in mouth to cement the connection that this is indeed the sacred bite object. Next phase is train Happy to down/stay on box and wait with tug toy at distance in front of him on yard. Then kids play as before and the periodically you say "Reeeeaaaaadddyyy" and then GO and Happy gets to sacred bite object. Long term goal is for Happy to be free off/lead running around while kids play their games. Then sacred object is left indoors, kids play for a few moments outdoors, "Reeeadddy" and some one goes indoors and gets tug toy for Happy. Happy is learning to self-modify and that the Charge isn't the kid's toys and their movements, but everything that's on the relevant loop that leads to Ready, Set, GO. That's the progression.

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kbehan Crate Duty

Right, it's working from the inside out so can be the slowest way, but I believe the surest. Often one has to go through a personal crisis themselves because emotion is a group medium and what the dog's behavior triggers feelings in the owner, and this is what we're really struggling with, not the dog. It's never about the dog.

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kbehan Crate Duty

Yes, what you are doing is learning how to let Happy's temperament evolve into existence, and this then becomes his means of discrimination for where his most intense expressions of energy should go. So yes, at first by putting a dog into a stimulating environment for which its temperament is not yet evolved enough to handle, one ends up in a struggle even if they're trying to be positive, and this then becomes the dogs' definition of where the intense energy should go. Eventually once you reach critical mass, you can put the dog into triggering situations, and later is better than sooner, and now since owner equals access to the best expressions of energy so that dog tunes into what owner is FEELING, if the dog then slips back into an inappropriate expression and that doesn't make owner FEEL good, it's easy to communicate this and dog can understand because emotion is a group medium. So you can make a test and let the thing start and see if the dog can get itself out of situation the goal being for you to do as little as you can get away with. Periodically repeat the test to take a reading. When the dog's ready, the dog is ready, just as the tide comes in when its time for the tide to come in, not before.

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Heather Crate Duty

So I just wanted to clarify, because our issue is also "toys", not so much inside (b/c we aren't even beyond the pen yet), but outside. Too many people walking around with too many toys and Happy gets too stimulated. Some dogs seem to sit and wait to see if a person will throw the ball...Happy would grab the ball, grab the person instead of the ball. It is definitely from overstimulation by/over-training with toys when he was little, again I am not wanting to beat myself up because now I know better I do better, and it was pretty normal puppy stuff recommended these days. Spring is coming and the kids toys, especially BALLS, are going to come out, we've done so much over these winter months and I want to be prepared and not regress. Bikes and scooters and swings and even sleds seemed to take care of themselves automatically, they are not prey items and now just fixtures in the driveway, or things the kids ride on. Balls, hula-hoops, jump ropes, may be a different story. Or maybe not, maybe I just tug and push and relax with a marrow bone just like I did with the bikes?

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Heather Crate Duty

Do you think that what is happening over time is that I am representing less of an obstacle (resistance) to Happy fulfilling his drive, and more and more becomming the way for him to get more fulfillment? Could that be why for awhile it seemed that he struggled more and more with me, because he assigned to me the label of "big barrier to access to good things?" If so, it definitely is a process of building trust, being open to receive the energy, eliminating/avoiding situations where struggles might occur, and then just keep on going through that loop over and over. But...eventually, and I feel that I am at that point in some areas, there are some situations to stop avoiding, little by little, and those situations are going to trigger that old junk. How to know when it is OK to purposely trigger the old energy and resolve it in the "new" harmonious way?

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Heather Crate Duty

I have been pushing, tugging, trusting the process for a few months now. In the past few days Happy has really been liking it when we play tug and he pushes into me hard and I push him away hard then coming back and playing more tug. He would sometimes get too excited with this, but now he seems to be relaxed (strangely relaxed!), and he is super responsive to me. He settles down and comes inside calmly. This feeling of shared purpose/energy is really fantastic. I am only now starting to appreciate that NDT is not a quick fix or a "training technique" to use to modify, create, or stop discrete behaviors.

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kbehan Crate Duty

Right, whenever you feel guilty, take her for a nice walk outdoors. She can be free indoors whenever she's emotionally spent. Soon the outside equals excitement, the indoors equals calmness. After she's hardened in the outdoors as expansiveness equals excitement, when she comes in the house she is suffused with calmness and it can't occur to her to get excited.

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Valerie and Eka Crate Duty

Ah ok. So she should pretty much be in the crate when indoors all of the time, then outdoors for all activities. Step 1. Yeah, that's me - trying to skip ahead or 'efficiently' do several steps at once. Then train outside without boys (have already been doing), outside WITH boys, THEN inside without boys, THEN inside WITH boys. Yes I'm a ways from that. Need to break out Neil's videos again. "Go slow and do nothing until you know what to do." !!!!! Thank you, that is very heartening to see in print. I've been sort of doing that, but not with conviction, and more because when I don't know what to do, then I don't know what to do, though I feel I should be doing SOMEthing. That not knowing state is very uncomfortable. Hard to 'sit with'. Probably a big Eckart Tolle/buddhist/zen lesson in there. This will be much easier to commit to now that the weather is warming up too. A bit muddy for a bit though. We got Eka in January and I'm making a mental note for the next one (someday) to be a spring puppy for sure. :)

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Heather Crate Duty

--get her to play with tug toy and/or push for food when boys are playing OUTSIDE-- I can't tell you how much this helped us. Playing with kids' toys inside with him relaxing in the same room is a LONG ways off yet for us, but hopefully we will get there.

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Heather Indy and Milo Recreate the Past

Little dogs are certainly much faster and would leave Happy in the dust. If I find a willing owner with a friendly small dog I'll try it! I wonder if it is the same with kids? Happy responds to the kids very well.

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kbehan Indy and Milo Recreate the Past

The natural order of things is that little dog "controls" big dog. So have Happy with little dog and with a handy place for little dog to scurry under if Happy gets too excited, and then little dog learns it has emotional leverage and begins to practice emotional jujitsu on Happy and now all the stars are in their right place. The little dog has to be old enough, and not cranky, for this to be a good experience for all.

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kbehan Crate Duty

For now, since she doesn't know down/stay no matter what, don't do training indoors with boys playing. It's better to do nothing than do the wrong thing and she's not ready for that degree of conflict. So in calm outdoor setting teach her down (see Neils' video) stay on box and next step is get her to play with tug toy and/or push for food when boys are playing OUTSIDE. This means she's giving her energy to you no-matter-what and this is half way to staying down no-matter-what, you can't go to step 4 without going 1,2,3 first. Go slow and do nothing until you know what to do.

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Valerie and Eka Crate Duty

Thank you, Kevin! This is very helpful. Oh how I wish I'd found NDT when we got her instead of so many months later.... And this explains why she jumps so readily into the crate in a minivan, because the first few times I had her get in the crate in a vehicle we arrived at the dog park soon afterwords (she likes the dog park) or somewhere else to play outside. I'm crating her today and then intermittently playing tug and fetchtug outside. A bit of barking and scratching at the door earlier I did put her outside for a conference call, which I don't normally do, because she wasn't being quiet enough for me to hold the call and she barked a lot outside. That may account for some of the tiredness, but we had a good energized round of play afterwords and she is sleeping very soundly in her crate right now. And by 'run around in the house' I meant not in the crate or on a lead. Not that she would be actually running necessarily. I'll be interested to see how the down/stay on a box inside while the boys are playing. They can get pretty rambunctious. Not sure how long she would stay there. And I need to figure out a good inside box. Ok, we'll see how it goes! Thanks again!

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Heather Indy and Milo Recreate the Past

--I wonder if Happy would play with little dogs or attack them -- I doubt very much that an attack would happen, but I will never know, because I go by the "30 pound difference" rule--if Happy is more than 30 pounds heavier than another dog, they don't play. I have friends with smaller dogs and we sometimes walk together...but I don't want to be sued if a little dog is injured even accidentally. A small dog may have its back or legs broken from a 120 pound dog lying on it or swiping at it with a big paw. Or what if Happy picked the dog up like a toy and shook it by the neck? Also, most small dogs that we have never met are terrified of Happy. The owners are sometimes not sensitive to that, and would force the dogs into uncomfortable situations because Happy looks so docile. His looks are deceiving - he is in fact very sweet and easy going, but when he plays, which he is always up for, he is very active, coordinated, and powerful, and he loves, loves, loves to roughhouse.

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christine randolph Indy and Milo Recreate the Past

ha ! i never get scared of strange dogs, just scared that Betsy might get into a fight. I guess I should be more scared of dogs I do not know. I am an idiot. my little dog barks like a moron when she is off leash on the side walk - and sees people or people with dogs on leash, especially when they are near our property or walking towards it. it is embarrassing. when my dogs are at that trail where all dogs are off leash, it seems fine... when my little dog is on a leash, no problem with moronic barking... when she wants to play with a large dog, she goes up to them, does something annoying to them and then runs of squealing like a stuck pig so they will chase her but not hurt her. most owners get a fright because they think their HUGE dog bit my little one and this is why she is squealing. I have to calm them down tell them this is her favourite game that the squealing is pre-emptive and part of the game. (...she is sooo disturbed, poor thing but having fun with it...) I wonder if Happy would play with little dogs or attack them ?

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kbehan Crate Duty

The real problem is she has learned that struggling over the toys is the most amount of energy she gets to release, so you do have to mechanically prevent her from getting any deeper into that syndrome. Meanwhile, she needs to get an even more powerful release outdoors than the toys and so that this can then become the organizing principle for how she regulates her energy. Also, if kids are playing with dog indoors, then only safe outlet for dog to bite is their toy, so she is cooperatively self-regulating in that sense. She shouldn't run around the house at all, I would teach her down/stay on a box and let her see the kids doing their thing and she has to stay put. This will neutralize the barking in the crate problem which is probably going to happen. So crate her in quietest spot in the house.

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Valerie and Eka Crate Duty

This is very timely for me. Eka still chews on many things I don't want her to chew on inside the house. I thought it was her terrier-ness. I have tried praising her and trading her treats for whatever she is chomping on. But I'm getting very frustrated and feel like I'm encouraging her to do it more, and she seems more 'magnetized' to them. And the boys' action figures are at stake here! I don't crate her much but I have started keeping her on a long leash with limited access to the rest of the house for a good bit of time based on a recommendation from someone on Neil's forum. But when I do let her off she often runs right to something to chew on - shoes, action figures, anything plastic. Ok so with that background, with a 1 yr old dog, should I go 'back' to crating her most of the time like a young puppy and only letting her out to go outside or for small periods to run around inside the house? How do I keep her from going directly to Batman on the floor over there? What if she barks a lot and digs at teh door when in the crate? And in operant conditioning this sounds like it would be deemed R-? Something negative goes away when the dog does what you want? Is it different?

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kbehan Crate Duty

If a dog were to be that shut down, then I would spend a lot of time working on suppling him and getting him into active mode with pushing and barking as you note. If a dog were to lock up about the crate, then it would be possible to physically manipulate him, actually flexing his body for him, and gently position him into the crate. This has happened to me when I had to pick up a dog in my car and he has to be crated. You can just cradle the dog and pop him in.

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Donnie_O Crate Duty

speaking of cats, I'd love to see a video or read a more in-depth description of the way you train cats to show their predator-ness towards a dog....

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Donnie_O Crate Duty

Jinxsie tends to snap at one of the cats (the one less apt to swat and hiss at her) every so often. I was starting to crate her and one day after eating some half-thawed tidbit in the park she got sick in her crate overnight. Since then I've been reluctant to crate her again as I'm concerned that it is very stressful for her. However, snapping at the cat (who seems to be unbothered by it) isn't a great situation so I'm going to give it another try.

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Sang Crate Duty

Hey Kevin, what happens if a dog's default reaction to the high collar is complete shut down? I'm just curious if you've ever run across a dog or situation where the dog chose to just hang himself rather than make a choice because he was so shut down. I imagine that first a dog has to be someone open and expressing his drive away from the crate in order for him to express some sense of fight or panic that would induce him to choose to go into the crate.

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kbehan Crate Duty

When the dog is emotionally mature enough to be in the house without feeling that any of the items have prey value, then he's ready. So you do little doses from time to time as he's maturing and finally you know when you know and that's the end of the crate. I've never corrected any of my dogs for anything in the house, and neither did they ever do anything "wrong" because I only gave them access when they were either calm, or ready for freedom. Once I had to leave them alone for 38 hours due to unexpected emergency and amazingly there was no accident or transgression. It never occurred to them. I came home at three in the morning, let them out, they took the longest whiz I've ever seen dogs take, and then five minutes later they were back in the house and went to sleep until I got up the next day which was far later than usual.

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