Thanks to our readers, the Natural Dog Training site is full of fantastic questions and interesting scenarios. We are continuing to develop the site in order to nurture this dynamic, growing community, and hope to provide more and more resources to improve your learning experiences with NDT. At the moment, we realize that there are often questions or comments that don’t quite have a place within the articles, and so we’ve created this post for that exact purpose.
Please feel free to come here and leave a comment about your experiences, a question about your dog’s behavior, something that you’re stuck on, or something you’ve accomplished. In short, if you’re going through the site, and have something to say that doesn’t quite fit elsewhere – this is the place! We hope this will make your reading experience a little easier, and we’ll continue to develop the tools you need to Keep on Pushing!
~ The NDT Team
The Selbach family dog, Athos
That makes sense, but how do I show someone who doesn’t know about NDT that, you can convert a pulling action into a pushing action, especially if, as you said earlier, when the team is running together they become in sync and get most pleasure from driving forward as one? The reason for asking this is that, most of us who work their sibes, need several to pull the sled, but in summer, when the weather is too hot, they can not be run but they still need to be exercised and this tends to be when the “being” walked by the dogs occurs. I would love to be able to be pushed from behind, rather than pulled from in front when walking the dogs. And if I can show others without resorting to gadgets like the halti, then we will have much happier dogs. I want to encourage the energy rather blok and frustrate it.
Milo
@Milo…Thank You so much for your questions! I have 3 dogs, 2 of which would make great sled dogs. It’s a dream of mine to have a team (even if a small one). So this thread provides a great deal of useful info and insight for me.
I started out doing canicross with my 3 and it is the closest thing to freedom I have ever felt. Even my lab is in the flow and enjoys the whole experience. I’m hoping to expand to skijoring soon and would like to have a small kick-sled, just for grins n’ giggles.
Every thing I’ve ever wanted to do with my dogs I’ve found in the dog sled world. Rollerjoring, bike joring, carting, etc. I’ve never cared for obedience, agility, conformation, or any of the others. I’ve always wanted to be one with my dogs, even if I do have multiple puppers. This whole thread gives me great hope that I can have what I want…ALL of it! So thanks again for posing your questions and of course, a great big Thank You to Kevin for his insights and awareness/understanding of how dogs really work.
The point I was trying to make is that by virtue of the pushing exercise being shaped into heeling, the dog feels magnetically drawn to your side as the “reason” why it gets to move along down the road. It gives the feeling of being pulled toward you, credit for the chance to move forward. By being pulled toward you, you are pushed along and it gets to go as well. So when the magnetic connection is strong enough, the dog isn’t feeling that he isn’t moving fast enough, the bond between dog and owner can fully channel all its energy and it feels in harmony being by your side rather than resistance because you are satisfying for it emotions’ demand for motion.
So, is a dog, which is pulling on it’s collar at the furthest extent of the leash, and therefore dragging the owner along, being pushed by the owner due to the dog perceiving the owner as a predator which is driving it the prey or is it being magnetically repelled?
Or is it simply that the dog is finding, an energy release, through the act of pulling and the pressure being exerted on the collar, which is stronger than the power of the discomfort it may be experiencing from choking on the collar?
Here is my two cents. In the physics of it, physical memory (as resistance to overcome) makes the leash akin to a circle between the dog and handler, so pushing and pulling are not different phenomenon. A dog pulling on the leash one way with a certain intensity overcoming a resistance offered by the handler is in effect pushing into its handler with that same force. So, the handler (if this was the point of the exercise) would be feeling good and his emotional checkbook balanced. Yet, while the dog may be exerting physically, it is not finding an emotional energy of equal intensity that the handler gets “credit” for. I am thinking here of the mushing dogs. If things were turned around, with the leash being stiff and the dog and handler on either ends of it pushing as in a tug/push-of-war exercise, the emotional equation could be balanced for both in one fell swoop. Regarding the mushing dogs, it would be interesting to turn the dogs around to have them push, and calibrate the resistance of the handler + sled such that it would move on ice/snow at the same speed as when being pulled (and of course the body shapes of the dogs might have to change), then I imagine the dogs would have a great time.
Unlike the trained sled dogs, the dog that is straining into the leash as in a problem puller, is either feeling a magnetic repulsion from its handler, a form of avoidance which it then associates with the pleasure of going forward, or an electrostatic kind of repulsion from its handler, a form of fear, which it then associates with the pleasure of going forward. The dog is either learning to avoid owner as the negative/predatory aspect, or fear the owner as the negative/predatory aspect, the former being more like drive, (heart as steady state flow) and the latter being more like the load/overload action of the nervous synapse (Big-Brain in the head). A sled team is in true drive however so that they feel a pull to the owner (this is the substrate of an emotional bond) as the source of the pleasure of going forward (release from tension). So imagine if one had no idea why there is more force available to them when in harness, imagine feeling that a pull to handler is what is responsible for all that energy that is coupled together and amplified by being in harness with all those other dogs. One has no idea where that surplus energy is coming from that is never available in any other context, just that one is experiencing it as a function of what one is feeling most attracted to since the object of this attraction is the predominant aspect of one’s conscious awareness. In other words, each dog gives the musher credit for that feeling of amplified power. The momentum of the sled is indelibly imprinted with the dog’s feeling for the handler since this person is the chief catalyst (negative) in its awareness for all that feeling of flow.
Kevin thank you.
Why is the siberian husky virtually the only breed that can not be let off the lead in open spaces without it, more often than not, disappearing off into the distance? Even if they have been run in harness earlier that same day! Recognised as a breed trait.
I am asking the question as, although I have been involved with the breed for 25 years or so, it is a breed which is seldom discussed by trainers etc probably mainly because of the type of work it does and the need for more than one dog to actually get any where. But, as the breed is now much more popular, mainly it seems because of its looks, there are many more “pet” huskies around and the off-lead issue, either from being let-off or by escaping from houses or gardens, has started to mean we are seeing many more welfare cases in the U.K.. Are we missing something or is this really a breed that should only be used for its intended purpose?
@Heather fully understand, only slight issue with dogs pushing the sled and handler ……. rear wheel drive is rubbish in the snow and ice!
Milo
So you have to be one step ahead of those siberian huskies it seems, which sounds exhausting to me! Newfoundlands aren’t the sharpest knives in the drawer, but wandering off is the last thing on Happy’s mind, and that suits me perfectly.
I have an Alaskan Husky and she is safe off-lead (out in the woods/fields, I wouldn’t have her off-lead in town). She comes when called and hops up into the vehicle without hesitation when it’s time to go home.
My mom has a Siberian (deaf) who loves to run around off-lead. She evidently has clearly defined boundaries and happily stays within them. These boundaries are of her own making, nothing that she’s been trained to.
So are our dogs unusual for the breed? The Siberian my mom had previously was similar in that,when unhooked from her tie-out, she would run straight for the house!
Heather and Christine, I have to personally agree with you both with our current lot, apart from our latest who is 16 weeks old and yet to learn. They are all able to go off-lead and I have to be careful where I do release them, but I would not trust them 100%. But in general it is recognised as a major breed issue, hence the question. Maybe more of an issue over here in the UK where everything is much more condensed than in the USA and Canada.
Milo
Kevin, having read more regarding pushing and the canine battery, I think I can now answer my own question to a certain extent. My question now would be that, even if we have drained and balanced all the physically experienced charges e.g. things that have happened to a particular dog, can there still be a charge which is inherited from it being “a siberian husky”? And if this is the case can we ever actually reach and extract the final 0.01% of charge in the battery?
Milo
@Milo, I’m attaching a link for you to an excellent breeder of Sibes. She might be a valuable resource for you.
http://qualobo.com/Our_Siberian_Huskies.php?aa=0&si0=8
@Christine, I will have a look at the site. Thank you
Milo
Each breed is designed to hold back that last .01% for its particular “vibration” which in general is the flight/fight thresholds of the prey it was bred to hunt. This last part of the battery is what defines a group trigger and is infinitely plastic, that being said however, each breed is different in regards to how easily they can be channeled in a new way that doesn’t feel any loss of emotional momentum, and therefore the dog doesn’t care if it isn’t actually “hunting” au natural. So huskies are difficult to re-channel, and the ones you see being very obedient are actually low drive and of the “mush-mellow” variety. I’ve known many of these kinds that live successfully in NYC. I feel I have successfully trained some of these, but it’s very hard for them to experience that the prey object I want them to bite, feels better than the actual prey, especially if they’ve had the experience of running deer, rabbits and killing the farmer’s chickens. Theoretically it’s all doable, and if you have such a dog and want to try, it’s important to treat it like a scientific experiment without any expectations and patiently wait for the magic to happen and without making any mistakes in the meantime. I can assure you it’s a wonderful exercise in humility.
But sensai…I thought all mistakes were remedial, it’s just a matter of working that foundation and building it strong.
Thank you Kevin for your responses and I will let you know how I get on as I have the opportunity with our latest addition a Sibe bitch. She is actually from racing lines but her dad was BOB at Crufts in 2010 and also runs very successfully in harness. So it will be interesting to see if I can keep the drive for harness but, also be the most important and attractive thing when not. May be I should try tracking as a summer activity, as this will honour the prey drive aspect and keep her moving forwards.
As she is just turning 4 months old is there anything in particular that I should focus on? I have at present kept everything very much as play, tug of war and advance and retreat both which she really loves. Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
Surely mistakes are only a problem if they are not recognised and learnt from.
After all, isn’t everything we like or dislike in something, just a reflection of ourselves at that moment?
Milo
Yes, but if you’re trying to shape wood, you must be aware of which way the grain runs.
While you’re doing all the good stuff, my basic bromide is to put a pup on the emotional back burner and admire from afar with as few words as possible.
Could the feel of the harness on a running sled dog, be equated to pushing and it is this feel which is enhancing the drive from the musher, because although the musher is sending them away from him/her they are actually going into the harness, and therefore they should be considered that they are in fact, pushing the musher rather than pulling the sled? And it is as much this “feel” which the first humans unknowingly tapped into, as the prey drive, when they first used dogs to pull a sled? After all the harness exerts the majority of its pressure across the chest area.
That’s an excellent observation. Overcoming the resistance of the harness, gives them the feeling of the group surge, all of which is accredited to the handler.
I’m liking this thread more and more! Does it follow then, that working a dog in the harness would have the same/similar effect as pushing for food?
Yes in principle, but the all important variation is that the dog is not learning to deflect its energy against the prevailing momentum of the other dogs, and without experiencing a loss of emotional momentum by reacquiring their handler as their object of attraction in this new direction, and so this is why it wouldn’t transfer outside of the very natural context of the sledding experience. So the Sibes are bred to be relentlessly dogged about maintaining that predominant group flow (this is also related to why dogs that run away from owner in yard nonetheless drop what they’re doing no-matter-what when they hear the car keys jingling.) and so they need special development in mastering deflection against the prevailing current of natural prey and dogs.
In other words, working Sibes in harness is akin to pushing for food but requires fine-tuning in order to generalize the feeling of group flow to include the handler. Is this a correct assumption? Then what is the “object of attraction” for them when they are in harness and feeling the group flow? Also, what do you mean by “special development”? Do you have a technique in mind other than push-for-food, tug-of-war, etc.? Or is it, as you said to Milo, a matter of experimentation with NDT techniques and seeing what happens? Of course, if the latter is the case, then I would hope that one would have some on-the-fly inspiration/epiphanies as to how to modify NDT techniques to better match the sled dogs temperament. How exciting…kind of like the “Undiscovered Country”!
What I’m trying to say is that unlike being in harness, a pet dog always has to resist the surge of flow toward the path of least resistance, whereas in harness the path of least resistance is going with the flow, and so you have to teach the dog that being attracted to the handler when for example, other dogs or a deer are running in the opposite direction, is a direction of flow that feels even better than the path of least resistance.
Okey dokey…I think I have it now!♥ My mother’s first Sibe was unusual in that, even when she was in harness, she was more attracted to people and/or other dogs to the extent that she could not be used as a lead dog because of her little quirk as she would take the team/sled off the track to go socialize with passersby. My mom has a knack for acquiring atypical animals.
Throughout sledding history, including during the Serum Run of 1925, there have been examples of teams making it through blizzards where, the musher has lost all sense of direction and is blinded by the snow, and yet the lead dog has brought them through to safety. Bearing in mind that, in many cases, the dogs have never been on the trail before and therefore couldn’t possibly know where to go. So what is guiding that dog? Is it magnetic, survival (individual or pack), or something else?
Just as a quick aside, why do some dogs roll in fox scat? And why would a puppy presented with fresh liver for the first time roll on it rather than eat it? 2 of ours have done the first and a friend’s puppy did the second.
Wolves do the very same thing; scents are stimulating to them, especially a new scent. Also, regarding scat I think the idea is, in NDT terms, that it’s new energy and of course new energy is stimulating. That’s my succinct explanation, right, wrong or partway there! lol
BTW Milo, you might enjoy visiting the International Wolf Center’s website @ wolf.org. They are an excellent facility and resource. I think you’ll like it. They post YouTube videos every week of the Ambassador Pack as well as weekly logs as an update on each resident wolf. They have a preponderance of experience and knowledge of wolf behavior.
Yesterday there was a police funeral in Toronto,Ontario, Canada for an officer killed on-duty. With 14000 in attendance, the procession followed the hearse through the streets to the designated place for the service. I quote from the Toronto Star “all that could be heard was the swish of uniform jackets in drill parade, the lament of bagpipes and the barking left-right-left of sergeants-at-arms.
As the hearse approached its destination, the canine unit’s German Shepherds began to whimper, even softly howling, as if sensing the anguish of a city that rarely pauses to reflect.”
Kevin, I think I know why the dogs behaved thus but as you know I struggle to articulate what I feel. Could we hear your interpretation of this event?
Milo: “Throughout sledding history, including during the Serum Run of 1925, there have been examples of teams making it through blizzards where, the musher has lost all sense of direction and is blinded by the snow, and yet the lead dog has brought them through to safety.”
Dogs are telepathic, so if they have a feeling of where the musher wants them to go, they’ll do their best to keep going toward that goal, even if there’s no visible trail.
This is also how lost dogs find their way home from long distances.
LCK
The dogs are resonating with the feeling that underlies grief, yearning. In the mourner’s minds as they hold the memory of their comrade in their hearts, they are experiencing the feeling of watching him recede into the distance. This is why dogs howl to sirens. So because all in the crowd are being so true to what they are feeling, the dogs are able to synchronize. This is a far more profound revelation of how nature is composed, then were we to say that the dogs are grieving in the mental, time-contextual sense of the term.
I agree with Lee that it is a form of telepathy. And we can look deeper into the mechanics of this. For example, modern technology is slowly evolving and in sync with the template for how consciousness and emotion evolved because I believe there is only one way for things to evolve, since evolution is energy becoming information. And so I notice that modern cameras now embed each photograph with a GPS signature so you can know when and where on earth you were when snapping any given photo. Every feeling is likewise imprinted with a GPS code since feelings are electromagnetic elaborations of the laws of motion and gravity. (Don’t get me started on the earth, the moon and the sun as the basis of a network consciousness, just bear in mind that the periodic and synchronized movements of the earth, moon and sun are what determine the environment in which consciousness evolved.) This is why when a feeling is rekindled in physical memory, a dog or animal finds itself drawn to a place as the basis of its response, rather than fundamentally operating from the perspective of some reason. In other words, the navigational capacity of homing pigeons and migratory organisms didn’t stop evolving at that level, it continued to elaborate into Social Navigation. On occasion and with certain temperament types this results in the ability in a dog to navigate across a vast unknown to rejoin a loved one, and I should also add it remains extant in indigenous people as well. Finally I have read that wolves will form up and march at a trot for a hundred miles and perfectly intersect a migrating herd of caribou whose route varies from year to year. I believe this GPS orientation in such cases revolves around a mass state of attunement around the moon, the organizing celestial body for the movement of ungulates. The moon is the ultimate emotional global positioning satellite. So if caribou and wolves feel a pull to the moon, then via non-locality of quantum mechanics (which must be a part of consciousness since conscious evolved in conformance with the laws of nature) there will be a triangulation based on respective differences of location and wolves can feel what prey is feeling. (I think Rupert Sheldrakes’ work on morphogenetic fields speaks directly to this phenomenon, I’m concerning myself with how this all boils down to the physicality of a feeling rather than the telepathic end of things.)
In regards to the liver rolling rather than eating, because the preyful essence is so intense, the dogs are treating it as if it is a real living prey animal, they are charged by its intensity while simultaneously magnetically aroused, thereby construing it to be the form of something living, and yet with direct access to its essence. The ecstasy that results is why they are grounding their bodies into it (the most basic form of synchronization) as if they are infant puppies rolling and wallowing with each other in the litter.
The best mushers, whether consciously or sub-consciously, will become more attuned to one dog in their team, the one that they have observed is the strongest runner and has the keenest drive, and they will make this dog the lead dog. If the musher was to concentrate their training, out of harness, to this one dog using NDT to further connect the dog to the handler, then would this translate into an enhanced response from the whole team when in harness, because the team are in sync and connected through their harnesses and the act of travelling together with the lead dog, who is responding to an enhanced connection to the musher? And would this actually be better than trying to become fully connected to all the dogs in the team with one on one NDT?
Which would work better as a team, the whole team trained using NDT or the lead dog only receiving this enhanced connection and that the team will be in sync with the lead dog and therefore don’t need to be as connected to the musher, as they will actually be connected through the lead dog anyway? I know that NDT benefits all dogs but, I am at present just thinking about when working as a team in harness pulling a sled.
My thought is that the lead dog is the head and the rest of the team are the body of synchronized energy, which is travelling to the musher’s desired destination.
Milo
Generally I’ve found that when you look at a tradition of dogs working at some specialized task through methods honed over centuries if not millenia, you find a very natural dynamic at work out of the sheer efficiency demands that are integral to such a tradition, such as sheep herding and sledding. So I don’t claim to be adding anything to such art forms, I’m most inclined to try and learn from it. However, it would be an interesting experiment and I would suggest working with the lead dog since I think you’re right, the rest key into that one.
I was watching the Training Hunney video Part II on facebook. You mention that you trigger a collapse in order to create feelings of sensuality. Could you expand on this a bit? I guess I always associated a collapse with being something not pleasurable. Do you mean you unground the energy quickly, in order to reground it into you, and reaffirm your being able to satisfy her energy? Also, are the other two dogs in training as well? Why did you have the dog on the right speak? Does that ground the overall group dynamic, and make it easier for Hunney? Thanks.
In order for a concrete behavior to be produced from a mind, a state of attraction must collapse. For most species this collapse triggers instincts. However, when the moment is conductive enough, the animal feels soft because it feels fully grounded into its surroundings and so the collapse doesn’t trigger a memory of falling. For example, note how supple and sensual the body of the deer is with the video of dog and deer playing. Note how the deer is “magnetically” drawn to the dog as it moves around (Meanwhile the dog is magnetically drawn to a get an object in its mouth to fully ground itself) and the deer follows. The deer has projected its “self” into the dog and feels in a state of emotional suspension with it and so everything the dog does makes the deer feel energized and its capacity for feeling flow isn’t breached. So in order for there to be an actual concrete action, a state of attraction must collapse, and this can trigger either instincts, habits of mind, or feelings. (Thinking sits on top of this dynamic.) But if the body is soft, then the experience of flow is immediately recapitulated by the collapse/tension/collapse/tension/collapse (This may remind you of a specific organ/muscle in the body.) and the animal experiences this as a sense of release, or “new energy.” So, once you get a strong foundation in softening a dog like Huuney, then you want to collapse their current frame of reference because its habit of mind is “static electric” and so when this collapses in its habituated way as in a problem dog, it won’t regenerate itself but will summon up physical memories of fear and this is why dogs might start off with intense displays of personality and people misinterpret as “friendly” but then a fight breaks out when the collapse happens and now they can’t sustain the feeling of flow toward the object of their attraction. By throwing in the bark, I am training the dog to regenerate the feeling of attraction. The dog projects its “self” into me, and if the bark is deep, metered and sustained, then it can (better) hold on to a feeling of flow because it’s getting into the feeling of suspension. In a state of suspension, the collapse feels like release, and if you watch dogs play, they build up pressure, and then collapse into play. This is a steady state feeling of flow and this is the basis of sociability. Flow is what trains a dog, not the handler or the reward. I trust this clarifies.
Here is a video I took of my dog Nelly at Kevin’s compound being introduced to Escobar (a pit bull being boarded there for training):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3f-SO4wgBkw
Might be a good visual of how a collapse looks between two dogs that doesn’t end up in a fight. Wish I’d kept recording longer to get the rest of the explanation on video!
That’s a great example Ben. What happened is that because the dogs were beginning to sensualize to each other via the hunger circuitry, (ingesting each others essence via touch and smell and even some sight), the avoidance and tension between them (the balance circuitry generating pressure and a virtual bubble separating them) then collapsed into the hunger circuitry and they experienced this as a release and as preceding a state of suspension and flow. (Notice how Nellie was tightly focused and Escobar was doing the wide-angled gaze, so they were beginning to differentiate under the tension and also were able to differentiate because their bodies were loosening up by way of ingesting preyful essences. Emotionally they are also synchronizing which we can see by way of their tail beating in sync.) On the other hand, if the collapse had not been channeled through the hunger circuitry, then the fear of falling would have summoned up physical memories of painful circumstances through the balance circuitry and they would have bit the other dog in order to “hold on” and stop the sensory inputs that are so destablizing. The biting would have been a means of relief from the tension, but it would only have added to their charge and hence the problem grows worse in subsequent encounters. Also one can note that we’re doing this work on tight leads and are tense about the dog’s fighting, so one doesn’t have to be perfectly calm to get the right response from the dog. Just put the dogs into position whereby they can make traits-on-demand and the feeling of flow will train them.
Good to know…I had wondered about the tails wagging. I appreciate your pointing out the tight leads as I’m always aware of that, concerned that my tension will trigger a bite/fight. That one piece of knowledge takes a HUGE load off me, knowing that I don’t have to be perfectly composed in order for my dogs to find their own way.
I was tense watching this clip because it seemed that a fight was a real possibility; expectation does fuel the fire.
Nice those contrary views are erased from the conversation…again not very scientific in your discussion. Not interested in discussing the possibilities that are not of your own hypotheses?
“Lost In Translation” first post I thought was a translation from an aggregator because it didn’t make much sense and the phrasings didn’t seem like common English. (I should talk.) Thus it didn’t get through the filter. So if they would like to rephrase their critique, I would post it, but please be specific rather than an in-general rant.
not this again…
lost in translation…I don’t frequent this site for arguments sake. I come here to assess/process, on my own time and in my own mind, the validity of the postings. There are plenty of other sites out there with contrary views and arguments against. All that chatter sounds to me like an unfocused radio station with a weak signal. I frequent this site because I appreciate a clear channel. And I appreciate the filters that keep out all the noise and confusion…just sayin’ 😀
A new filter has been installed to block out cosmic radiation from some dwarf star in our galaxy whose emissions seem only capable of static. Intelligent signals continue to come through clearly.
hehehehe…gotta love a man with a good sense of humor… 🙂
A very interesting article on Nicky Clayton’s work with scrub jay’s and her proposed theory of mind.
http://www.psychol.cam.ac.uk/ccl/Discover.pdf
She conducted experiments with captive scrub jays showing that only jays that had pilfered other jays’ caches in the past, were observed to change the location of their own cache, when being observed by other jays. As Clayton puts it, “it takes a thief to know a thief.”
She also demonstrates how a jay when given the choice between two enclosures, one where it has received breakfast, and the other where it has been left hungry in the past, will cache food in the enclosure where it has not been fed. This supposedly shows it can mental time travel, and prior plan for future meals.
The jay will also when in ear shot of another jay, cache its food in quieter material…i.e. sand, instead of pebbles.
Probably the most incredible experiments have been with the corvid species, the rook. Emery has shown that the rook can manipulate a piece of wire into a hook in order to grab a worm suck in a narrow tube.
He also showed that when the worm is out of reach in a tube with water, the rook will ADD ROCKS TO THE WATER, raising the level and bringing the worm into its beak.
I know there’s been an article here on I think mimicing behavior in corvids, but this is still astounding to me. Thoughts, explanations?
At some point I want to apply what I’ve learned from cognition in dogs to these experiments with Corvids, especially since the latter is frequently cited as proof that cognition in dogs is rational, intellectual, abstract and conceptual. However I believe that these experiments are being misinterpreted as is the case I believe with the dog cognition experiments. First of all, note that nest building in birds which means manipulating and fashioning sticks, twigs, fabric and all manner of jetsam and flotsam into a geometric pattern, a circle, is in a way a form of tool making and yet in this instance is considered instinctual rather than intellectual problem solving. So in these corvid experiments note that the focus of the experiment is always an object of attraction that is blocked and thus becomes a complex object of resistance. (This triggers physical memory) Looking at it in the simplest terms as a function of a force of attraction (acceleration) resistance to acceleration (object of mass) there is thus an “angle of deflection.” In other words, the bending of the stick is the same impulse in a dog to deflect its attention to where its owner is pointing, or where another dog is looking and this new angle identifies a “group trigger” and what differentiates dogs in this capacity is that they are far more plastic than corvids or cats. So like a dog picks up an alternative object in its jaws in order to ground out its attraction to another dog that it’s attracted to but can’t make direct contact with, the bird is drawn to a stick to put it into its jaws to ground out the attraction. Then, the bending of the stick to fit the opening of the tube represents a triggering of the nest building instinct so that the stick is fashioned to fit the angle of deflection to a complex object of resistance. I also find it interesting that the bird isn’t experimenting per se, but to my eyes is assessing the geometry of the problem and then pretty immediately coming up with the right angle, like a beaver positioning a stick into a dam to block the flow of water (object of resistance) or a homing pigeon circling two or three times to pick up the magnetic coordinates and then zooming off onto correct angle of deflection. Also in regards to caching, it’s in our minds that the bird is doing a ToM problem, as if it’s figuring out whether it’s being watched by other birds that would want to steal its food, and in this regard I’m going to write further on this about ravens calling other ravens to a carcass, but what is happening is that the bird perceives a food that it can’t immediately consume, again as an object of resistance and that this triggers physical memories of being vulnerable, as if the bird is the object of attention. Thus, like a dog that caches a bone or toy, having the object in plain sight makes the animal itself feel vulnerable. It can’t bear to look at it being out in the open, a feelling of exposure that would be amplified if indeed there are actually other individuals in the area to amplify the feeling of being object of attention. At any rate, I think the key to decoding these experiments will prove to be calculus, gravity and the laws of motion.
I understand grounding out its attraction by grabbing the stick in its mouth, but “assessing the geometry”, and “fashioning the stick to fit the angle of deflection to a complex object of resistance”, is a bit confusing.
Like I said, I’m simply going to be thinking out loud here since I haven’t spent much time pondering the problem. But at any rate, there’s a specific narrowness of the tube opening and there’s a specific depth of the tube with the food on the bottom, and if I knew calculus, I believe there is a way to calculate the opening relative to the depth and this would yield an angle as some kind of formula of change relative to the resistance between the crow and what it is attracted to. This would be akin to dogs deflecting their attention onto a common object as a way of objectifying the degree of resistance between them due to their mutual state of attraction that can’t otherwise be brought to ground. So the crow is attracted to the inaccessible food and feels a state of resistance. It picks up a stick to ground itself out, but this won’t work, it’s still frustrated, and then nesting instinct kicks in and it bends it according to an angle of deflection that it can feel. Note that the crows fashion nests in the spring, far before the arrival of their young, but their hormones and solar cycles are inducing this state of yearning far ahead of the problem. So the crow is fashioning the stick relative to the test tube before the arrival of the food into its beak. I don’t presume this is a full or elegant resolution of the question of corvid intelligence, but this would be the first stage of applying a “network-intelligence” to the kind of “problem-solving” that animals are actually performing. I would also like to say that our concept of time really confuses our interpretation of animal learning. I don’t know how to say it clearly too well, but may I first observe that learning is actually happening as if time is running backwards. The energetic principles become more clear once we adopt this way of thinking about it.
milo if you want to exercise your sled dogs in the summer you can put their harnesses on and let them pull a small tire, i.e. an aircraft tire. Jeff King lets his dogs pull a boat so they are nice and cool in the water but still thinking about sledding. just teach your dogs to swim so they can keep themselves fit in the summer.
some mushers have carousels for the summer (Jeff King too) but i think it is less cool.
another thing to do in the summer, you can hook up a team to an atv and go out at night.
@Christine Randolph – Thank you for that info love the iamge of a team of huskies pulling a boat!
@Kevin – Thank you for your replies to my previous questions regarding Siberian Huskies. I will let you know how I get on with concentrating on the lead dog. I would have come back sooner but, I have been trying to get a debate going regarding Puppy Farms and BYB in the UK. Unfortunately, some in the Forum that these discussions have been raised in, are more concerned with defending the club involved’s name, rather than understanding the broader meaning of the questions raised. 225 posts and 28 pages later and I have jumped out as I was getting dizzy going round in so many circles. Sadly some people really can’t see the wood for the trees! Now I know why I don’t get involved with clubs, as the personalities sometimes think the parts are more important than the whole, especially their parts. I am always delighted to talk to people who are happy to consider a different perspective, know what I mean?!