If I’m somewhat understanding Burl’s very deft translations and commentary on Whitehead, then apprehension is mental and prehension is energy. And therefore animals have no intention, rather they feel the energy that percolates up through their cells and then through their metabolic, mechanical and neurological systems and then go on to formulate a coherent response to their world. Furthermore, prehension fundamentally revolves around a state of resonance with energy, and therefore animals learn in reverse, backwards in time which is another argument against intention since that is forward directed. In other words, animals develop in embryo in complete resonance, they are born with the answer already inculcated in every cell, fibre, tissue and neuron of their being, and then through prehension (sense the essence within the form) they ultimately connect with those things in nature that serve to recapitulate resonance. Whereas the human intellect sees them working things out as if they are mentally apprehending what’s happening over time and relative to other points of view, when they are really “learning: backwards in time, regressing internally to a state of resonance but now, by unconsciously inducing the object of attraction to play its part as a counterbalance in that same wave function, and given all the experiences they’ve metabolized as stress, incorporating all that energy of resistance back to a smooth wave function of resonance has added more energy to the network. So animals are out there as stress magnets bumping into things, generating friction, and then turning this into a wave function which we otherwise recognize as social structures. This resistance is now part of consciousness, and more importantly as information that expands the network. It seems to me that prehension is a manifestation of a network consciousness.
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Just as we are not always in ‘flow’, NEITHER IS A DOG. It would be physiologically impossible for a creature to be timeless and thoughtless – ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE.
That is true but there is a far more fundamental way to say this and which brings one directly into the animal mind, so to repeat, what exactly IS the dog feeling?
The question is applicable to the moments of no flow as well and we need not resort to thoughts, what then is the dog feeling when there is no flow?
As far as feelings go, pretty much the same things as us.
“…there is a far more fundamental way to say this and which brings one directly into the animal mind…”
Stop equivocating – we both have this animal mind or we both don’t.
I’m going to say resonance, he is feeling what his senses sense, because that is what functioning without fear is, it is “lossless”, no resistance, input = output. The analogy that I go back to regarding channeling energy this way is water flowing in a river — picturing the dog/person/beingas a little vortex spinning in the river, it is not separate from the river, there is stuff that flows into the vortex and spins around and flows out again, those things become “part” of the vortex but they are also part of the river.
He is smelling, tasting, seeing, hearing, feeling the ground push up on him and his heart beating and the itch on his butt.
Heather, if you are willing to say that the following is just how you too experience life, then you are being consistent…are you so willing? ”
I’m going to say resonance, he is feeling what his senses sense, because that is what functioning without fear is, it is “lossless”, no resistance, input = output. The analogy that I go back to regarding channeling energy this way is water flowing in a river — picturing the dog/person/beingas a little vortex spinning in the river, it is not separate from the river, there is stuff that flows into the vortex and spins around and flows out again, those things become “part” of the vortex but they are also part of the river. “
I wish I could say that is true all, most, or even some of the time, my actual functioning is much more muddled than that, but that is exactly what I work toward.
To complete the river/vortex analogy, making contact with another sentient being/object of attraction would be like joining two vortices, more water/energy can flow through the combined vortices, more stuff can pass through without bogging down, that I think is the point of making contact with objects of attraction, it serves the “universe” this way.
No matter where I’m at in the house, if I lie down, within a very short time (on the order of 1 second) I can hear Happy let out a huge, heaving sigh. In a real sense we are waveforms virtually in phase most of the time.
This is all true, but at the risk of seeming oblique, the reason I’m persisting in this line is so that you have the chance to see how hard it is to snap the intellect out of the prism of thinking and you are very close to completely expressing what I’m trying to say about network consciousness and so have the opportunity to get beyond thoughts. So, if everything is a function of attraction, and the dog is feeling in-the-flow (which means toward an object of attraction), what then precisely is the dog feeling and without using a metaphor by way of explication?
Yes, so articulate what a feeling is without using a thought, without placing it in any larger context, the absolutely simplest way to say it which is so simple it doesn’t occur to the human intellect.
Like he has consumed the object, eaten it, an experience of being satiated, a heightened awareness of every physical sense, and a sense of overall well-being, “mental” suspension with total sensory acuity.
occasionally my dogs waits a long time before offering a behaviour. I am also waiting, treat in hand, putting pressure on the dog to DO SOMETHING. Make a choice, any choice.
according to NDT it is a building of emotional pressure when the dog’s attention is on an object of attraction, which eventually triggers a specific action.
the dog will perform a behaviour, his or her “internal mechanism” determines which behaviour this dog performs at this time.
the internal mechanism leads to a choice of activity, it chooses the activity which promises the most potential to be the one that aligns the dog most with the object of attraction.
(is this correct or am i making this up?)
the mechanism uses unresolved emotion to provide energy to perform the activity, thereby resolving the emotion.
…the nature of the unresolved emotion has no impact on the activity, it just provides energy. (correct ?)…
it is not important to know which particular unresolved emotion is selected to be resolved to deliver the energy. (again, not sure about this one…)
The resolving of emotion as well as the sense that he or she is aligned with the object of attraction, creates a feeling of well-being in the dog, providing positive reinforcement to make a repeat of this behaviour in the future more likely.)correct ?)
I would like to have a dog training method that does not require many repeats and yet makes my dogs’ behaviours predictable. I guess this is unrealistic ???
KB: “So, if everything is a function of attraction, and the dog is feeling in-the-flow (which means toward an object of attraction).” AND “so articulate what a feeling is without using a thought, without placing it in any larger context, the absolutely simplest way to say it which is so simple it doesn’t occur to the human intellect.”
The first quote is a generalization that is correct when subjected to qualifications. There are distinct types (patterns) of attraction, and each latter type is staged by and is opposed by the former. In ascending order the patterns are sub-atomic, atomic, chemical, biological, cultural, and psychological/intellectual.
Your question in the second quote above is entirely in the psychological/intellectual level. I can give two identical answers, one from Pirsig and one from Whitehead:
Pirsig says the pre-intellectual awareness is Quality – the stimulus that causes us to act within our environment. The more we are focusing intentionality (caring about) what is before us, the greater will be our Quality event.
Whitehead tells us that it is ‘withness of the body.’ Upon first waking, before we focus on any one of the things beginning to rush to awareness, we non-verbally have the sense to “have a care, this is something of worth.”
I think grounded is perfectly descriptive. Is that how you made the electrical/physics connection?
This is where I’m trying to go here. In order for the feelings of grounded, satiation, pressure and all of it to have meaning, there is one way we must speak of it, and it answers the question, what is the dog feeling? What is the dog feeling so that its feelings have coherence with what other emotional beings are feeling?
I think that when we get to the answer I’m striving for, then it will speak to quality of any given attraction and the connection between all these levels of attraction.
This is correct, the dog always chooses the path of most energy, as best it can perceive it. Unresolved emotion is tuned to what caused it, quality: and then it can be the basis of attunement, i.e. quantity (emotional mass as counter balance/ballast). When you get this answer I’m striving for, and I’ve discussed it at length here and there throughout the sight, then there are not many repeats and there is certainly predictability. Thanks for paying such close attention to what I’ve written, these responses are so informed it’s gratifying.
Kb “I think that when we get to the answer I’m striving for, then it will speak to quality of any given attraction and the connection between all these levels of attraction.”
To be clearer: Quality for Pirsig is better understood as a noun – it is that which motivates us to act, and it thus precedes action. You could say it directs our attention (attraction). Each level represents a unique mode of Quality that exists in Reality.
Kb “there is one way we must answer the question, what is the dog feeling? What is the dog feeling so that its feelings have coherence with what other emotional beings are feeling?”
Uh-uh…there is not a single answer that satisfies both of these two distinct questions – no way, no matter what you might be thinking.
I am still working on the the essence of ‘feeling’ and what I mention from P and ANW .
I maintain that there is a simple answer, and that it is the key to network consciousness and the nature of information.
The question was ‘What is the dog feeling?’
Not ‘What does dog want to feel?’
So if you’re after resonance or harmony, that answers a different question than we began with.
In experiencing, what we feel is our bodies. We have stored emotions, past perceptions, images, and other memories. With each short moment of present time duration, our brains take in proprioceptive, exterioceptive, and interioceptive sense data pertaining to, respectively, balance and motor-movement monitoring, the 7 external senses, and the state of our inner organs. These past memories and present sensa are associated to form novel ideas.
The feeling of experience is a complex of emotional memories and past formed dispositions (values for humans) that arise in contrasts with the present data in the association of ideas.
It is how Whitehead explained consciousness as the feeling of awareness of comparison (contrast), though we can feel subconscious emotion as well.
What I’ve said up to this point for us is true of dogs too..
Feeling desire, a want
Oops, I must be prehending LCK typing 7 when I meant 5 senses. Prehensive perception in the mode of causal efficacy is arguably a 6th sense for someWhitehead folk.
This is exactly what our point of disagreement is, and the crux of this exercise, all past experiences and current physical and neurological processes add up to one thing which is what the dog is feeling. The dog is not feeling an idea, what is he feeling?
I’m not after harmony or resonance, these describe the system overall. But within the dog itself, the dog is feeling something very specific due to the way its nerves and body processes a state of wanting or on the other hand its denial.
Yes, but how does a dog feel a want?
“This is exactly what our point of disagreement is, and the crux of this exercise,”
Yes, and with the following paraphrase of me,
” all past experiences and current physical and neurological processes add up to one thing which is what the dog is feeling.”
We have the answer to,
” The dog is not feeling an idea, what is he feeling?”
And, The issue of want is a whole other thing.
As a pull, a feeling of being physically accelerated.
…toward the object of attraction, which absorbs the momentum, and the dog is grounded (lots of mixed units there, I know)
But it also closes the virtual circuit, so new/different feelings can be resolved.
For clarity, “all past experiences and current physical and neurological processes add up to one thing which is what the dog is feeling.”
The ‘one thing’ is an ‘occasion of experience = an actual occasion.’ It is a complex association of physical feelings and perhaps associated imagery as well.’
The occasion of experience is not an idea, IT IS AN EVENT. It is now delegated as a stored feeling-charfed memory of the past available for future recollection – most likely in the very next present time duration to follow.
If you guys have been following any of the process stuff of weeks past and this discussion today, I do not think a clearer demonstration of Whitehead’s ideas could be had (from me, anyway).
Recalled memories of the past are thoughts, and the universal feelings that every sentient being shares that Kevin is trying to get us to stop intellectualizing about are not based on thoughts, even in humans. In that respect Whitehead is not germane to this discussion.
I think it is good that we keep on pushing with Kevin’s guidance, until we make contact.
Yes, yes, yes, what do you call that pull, and what do you call that push?
An event is not a vacuum, it is something, what is it?
If we are seriously changing the question…
Are we settled on what animals feel?
That there is no instantaneous time but rather a present event with finite duration?
As for being void of any thoughts, I’ll allow that for the two of you and your dogs, if you like. Just note for the future when you may have to explain yourselves to someone face-to-face that a thought is not the big of a whoop. It can be a simple as a formed image, many of which my dogs pass through everyday while dreaming.
an electromagnetic force.
Which would make sense why potential-objects-of-attraction that are farther away affect dogs less than closer ones (the strength of the force is inversely proportional to the square of the distance from the object).
“Recalled memories of the past are thoughts, and the universal feelings that every sentient being shares that Kevin is trying to get us to stop intellectualizing about are not based on thoughts, even in humans. In that respect Whitehead is not germane to this discussion.”
As I have strenuously tried to point out here, you have every right to your own uninformed opinions, but not to your own facts.
My opinion that recalled memories are thoughts, or that Whitehead is not relevant, or both?
Again, I’ve been precise, I have no problem saying dogs hold images, William Campbell writes very eloquently on this. I’ve consistently said thinking-as-capacity to compare one point of view or moment to another. Furthermore, the image is not the “meaning” to the image, the feeling is, and the feeling is not a thought.
YES, EXACTLY, dogs feel electrostatic pressure, forces of accelleration, deaccelleration, electrical current, and magnetic attraction, deflection and flipping of polarities, and most especially electromagnetic induction. Animals are charged particles of consciousness. When you listen to music you are feeling these energetic states, this is what dogs feel. Imagine then if this electromagnetic fluxations were the totality of your conscious awareness. The reason that every animal has two brains is so that the front-end-isn’t-connected-to-the-hind-end, and this means that when the front end is going faster than the rear end, the dog is electrically charged (pressure) and he does thing loaded, brittle, straight on, load/overload. And then when the electrical current is completed between the two brains, the consciousness of every cell in its body becomes aligned around this central current and in this state when dealing with a complex object of resistance, the rear end will go faster than the front end, (sexuality) and the dog will find itself moving ALONG A CIRCLE just as if the dog is a charged particle deflected by a magnetic field. Animal consciousness turns physical energy of change into physiological and neurological energy so that the animal will perceive the world as if it is negotiating electrical fields and navigating magnetic fields. This will become unbelievably obvious to you once you train your eye.
This is an adaptive way to be because nature is composed according to the laws of physics, there is no other possibility. Therefore it changes in accord with the laws of physics, there is no other possibility. Therefore if emotion is the physical embodiment of the laws of physics, when the animal is acquiring stress as the inverse function of emotion, it is laying down a calculus of change, and since calculus works forwards and backwards, the animal is metabolizing environmental changes into a prediction of where energy is going to be. This is the most valuable information any being could possibly hope to envision. In the interaction between animals as charged particles, they become electromagnetically induced by each other and they are converting their stress reserves into a prediction of where energy is going to be to an even finer level of granularity.
Energy can only move as a wave, so physical energy is absorbed via emotion and emotional mass is acquired via friction, and so the potential for pressure is magnified as this p-cog is projected onto things, and then if this mass can go on to serve as emotional counterbalance, two beings so entrained are converting this static charged particle nature of consciousness into a wave and the animals will move in a way that in the future will capture and harness new energy.
Exactly, the force of attraction is relative to the distance because the beginning of consciousness from the apprehension of change is as a function of displacement of the hunger/balance continuum. It’s unbelievably simple. Consciousness is energy. THE INFORMATION IS IN THE ENERGY NOT IN THE BRAIN.
Yea! I feel grounded now. THANK YOU SO MUCH. I am understanding more, seeing where I was having trouble. It is relatively simple to understand “feeling” at the static, individual level, but hard to connect that to the the dynamic, group level. I guess that horrific electromagnetics class I took in college might be put to good use afterall, haha.
I can only hope for your sake that if you, a loved one, or a follower of this nonsense should ever suffer some head injury and require neurological and/or psychological rehabilitation, treatment is sought from professionals who have studied the appropriate science that underlies their practice.
Yes, I certainly hope they received high grades in organic chemistry class so that they’re well schooled in the electromagnetic principles by which every cell in a body is organized and functions. Of course, that organizing principle must have stopped evolving right there, in fact, evolution must have stopped altogether with the advent of reason. If you’re right, then our cells have nothing to do with our consciousness. But I think you’re in an intellectual dead end. Consciousness is energy. Meanwhile a philosophy that doesn’t understand energy has no feeling because all it is talking about are machines. How could an animal have an energetic need beyond what a thought can do for them if they do things for a reason?
“How could an animal have an energetic need beyond what a thought can do for them if they do things for a reason?”
I cannot find two identical definitions for a ‘thought’. They are clearly complexes of emotion, perception, values (preferences/dispositions/temperements), images, comparisons, etc. But I know their actions are at the highest pattern level – reliant on and undergirded by those lower ones, but with operations explainable by its own psychological terms.
Magnets and batteries and attraction pressures, for example, give me no guidance on possible explanations for Peanut’s behavior – this is a psychological issue.