Thanks to our readers, the Natural Dog Training site is full of fantastic questions and interesting scenarios. We are continuing to develop the site in order to nurture this dynamic, growing community, and hope to provide more and more resources to improve your learning experiences with NDT. At the moment, we realize that there are often questions or comments that don’t quite have a place within the articles, and so we’ve created this post for that exact purpose.
Please feel free to come here and leave a comment about your experiences, a question about your dog’s behavior, something that you’re stuck on, or something you’ve accomplished. In short, if you’re going through the site, and have something to say that doesn’t quite fit elsewhere – this is the place! We hope this will make your reading experience a little easier, and we’ll continue to develop the tools you need to Keep on Pushing!
~ The NDT Team
The Selbach family dog, Athos
As long as Happy isn’t balking, and given that he’s such a big dog an intermediary step is fine. That’s a great example of attunement you’re achieving with Happy, after a while it all becomes wordless and the dog just naturally does what you want, no need to talk. Keep on pushing, that pulls the dog in.
You need to put a high box in front of the window and make her stay on it, first see the brief video when I work Hero on stonewall and do the preparation, then consult the vetting video with the table work. Make her stay on the box with a long line pulling her off if needed and then she gets to fight to get back on the table which will release all her panic toward things that go by, and put her back into feeling in control of her own body since she successfully resolved the balance problem.
He’s going right up onto the table. He stays solid when I have food moving like prey and zinging him when he’s waiting/calm, but he jumps right off if I pick up his leash, I think he takes it as a signal to hop down. I will also check the videos (and re-watch Neil’s videos) to make sure I am not skipping any foundational steps with the table.
You have to train him to fight to stay on the table. When you hold the food and he leans forward, it whisks away and the dog settles back on its haunches. Then you zing him with the food and be very careful he doesn’t lean one millimeter forward, if so, whisk it out again. When you see him settling back and getting the quick zing reliably, start to pull on lead toward you with left hand, while food is in whisk-out/zing-in poised position so that he resists the pull on lead by settling backwards which you immediately reward with food zing. Pretty soon you will be able to rappel in toward Happy putting more and more of your weight onto long/lead with him fighting to stay on the box. That’s what stay should feel like.
OK, thank you, I will keep working on it. I’m doing the box with meals/pushing time. My husband is not too focused on training, he has too much going on right now, so I am doing it. I will need to bring him up to speed when the kids are out doing their hyper thing, but for now I’m putting Happy on the box when the kids are behind a fence or in the pool (still can be seen and heard!) But my husband has become very supportive of NDT and tries to be consistent with what I am doing, so that has helped a lot.
You may have covered this in an article or comment before, so apologies if this is repetitive.
Do you have any tips on getting a dog to bark on command? I’ve tried a few things with Nelly to no avail (riling her up, “barking” at her).
Just tie her out, and then from a distance, stare at her with some food clasped in your hand held tight to your chest. I should mention that first she has to see that you have food and entice her with it. If she references her gut, as in licking her lips or settling into her hind end, then advance and give her some food. She will probably sneeze first before barking because she’s learned that she has to “push energy out” in order to achieve the right “pitch” or vibration to get what she wants. When she learns to bark she’s learning to “pull” things in by being in a pure state of desire. If you don’t get a lick or snort, then settle for a softening of the eyes right before she looks away, that’s still the collapse of a pushing effort and she has to learn to pull by referencing the brain in her gut rather than pushing through the Big Brain in her head. Keep On Pulling!
That worked really well! She caught on almost immediately. At first her barks were muffled and high pitched, but she eventually got into deep, guttural barks.
After a few bouts of ‘pulling’ me in.. she seems to hit an overload where she starts to sniff the ground to look for dropped kibble (she’s also done this with pushing since day one).
I don’t know if it’s related, but she certainly seems to be more grounded after the ‘speaking’ session this morning, and it definitely wore her out as well. Thanks for the tips!
I’ve been doing some box work with Nelly– it really only took her 2 jumps off the “box” (the box being a picnic table) to begin to fight to stay on it. If I pull on the leash, she will struggle with all her might to stay on.
If I setup a table in front of the living room window (where she sits waiting to explode at passing dogs).. am I just doing the box work, or do I need to have a dog passing by before doing the exercise? What am I looking for to know that it’s working?
On a side note, Nelly and I were out in the woods the other day and came across 3 deer about 30ft away from us. She bounced off the end of the leash a few times when they scattered, but quickly came in for a push. It was cool seeing “deer energy” and being able to redirect it!
Whatever degree of intensity Nellie has invested in dogs going by, must be equaled by fighting to stay on the box. So Nellie gets to fight for what she wants, it’s just that by reformulating the problem in terms of balance to stay on the box, you are neutralizing the degree of disequilibrium that is invoked by dog going by and this is a problem she can easily solve and bring to resolution. So you are giving her a physical problem to solve which is easy, rather than a psychological problem (listen to me because of this or because of that reason) which is impossible for a dog to solve. Take your time and go by her responses. Meanwhile by CHANNELING deer energy into you (I don’t like the term redirecting because it doesn’t mean that the dog’s energy is getting grounded into the owner, it’s a psychological term that obscures insight), you are giving her the answer. Sooner or later these two values will merge in her Drive and then you will enjoy her company as never before. Good work and keep on pushing!
Hi Kevin,
I have a question. Took Colt and Bea on a hike on one of the mountains today where Colt had been a nightmare about four mos. ago. Barking at everyone, tuning me out. It was right after that incident I found NDT.
Since implementing NDT he became really good on ‘his” trails as in the trails we walk every morning and eve and so I decided to give it a whirl. I prepped him with a few days of pushing dinner.
I tied him to me on a long line. My daughter tied Bea on and we hit the trail. He was simply one bark woofy with the first few people we met so once deeper into the trail we let them loose. He was GREAT!! Upon seeing people approaching he would always bark, but very woofy and only a couple of barks. He came back to me each time immediately and walked by folks very soft and relaxed. I am thrilled. Thank you.
My question is this. Although the stranger danger barking has changed dramatically, Colt now barks in the car. He never did before. It’s only been the past couple of mos. Still just those big low woofy barks, but at every person who he sees outside the car as we drive. He is fine if parked somewhere without me in the vehicle. Now I don’t mind this. Much. OK I would prefer he stopped the car stuff. At home he quiets pretty quickly when I say to. Not in the car. So there is that. What’s left in there? Why might he be barking at bikers and joggers and walkers from the car when he never did before?
The other thing I wonder about is why Bea never gets in on it. She used to when his bark was sharper and more anxious sounding. Both dogs travel in the back of my station wagon so are in very close proximity. Colt will start woofing and Bea just looks at him, moves to the side and basically carries on looking out the window or even lying down if she is down. Same on the trail this morning. She takes no notice of folks at all and no notice of Colt’s taking notice. Now I love this, but I am very curious about it too. What’s going on there do you think?
BTW, Bea is such an easy dog. High drive and intense and eeeaaasssyyy. Want something done? Now? Ask Bea!
Thx again,
Crystal
Hey I just read through this thread and saw Ben’s post #46. So that is probably what is up with Colt in the car, secondary route for the charge and because he is much calmer than Ben’s dog I suppose his charge is much smaller? As I said very deep woofy, sometimes a little howly. What is this woofy bark emotionally? I tell him in a good natured way that he is being ridiculous as he sounds quite goofy and yet something is still going on in there as it is persistent.
When the dog starts to heal, then the charge does come out in new ways, but also the “flaw” in the dog’s temperament that was originally damaged as a puppy, comes more to the surface and the dog acts like a puppy, sometimes even house-soiling and chewing stuff up resurfaces. I see such oddities as indicators of the dog learning a new way to perceive through its “flaw.” So these immature woofs are the puppy coming back up to the surface, experiencing the conflict, but not going by instinct or habit, just moving the energy along. They tend to grow out of it as long as they’re getting their mind organized around their owner as their charge. Good job, keep on pushing!
This entry makes me smile because what I am seeing with my 4 year old dog Cholula who I just got from the shelter and am working on pushing with to (hopefully) eventually treat some intermittent dog aggression on the leash, is that as she responds to the pushing and especially my work getting her to play with bite and throw toys (which she never did before, according to her previous owner, who I was able to talk to), it brings out the puppy in her. It is funny to see a 70 pound adult dog pounce at toys in unmistakeably puppy-like bounces and pounces, but it does seem to me that in the pushing and toy training I am in some way getting her to regress to her puppyhood (that I feel she may never really have gotten to enjoy the first time around given her inhibition issues around food and people) in the hopes that she can re-grow from there without her one real “flaw”; the instability around some other dogs.
So Coltie has found his inner puppy. Aaaaw.
In all seriousness, this resonates completely. Perhaps that is why my attitude around it has been to tease him and sweet talk him instead of get pi$$ed off and tell him to stop. It can be annoying.
So the ‘flaw” in his temperament was genetic shyness (father)? And I damaged it by socializing the heck out of him when he was a small puppy handing him off to everyone for cuddles and coos. Even though he seemed fine and relaxed in those peoples’ hands, when I handed him over he was probably feeling a very big charge and was scared. Later when I used the positive based behavioral work during his two fear phases, 4 mos and 8 mos. he looked OK too, as in relaxed, though we often commented that Colt wasn’t a border collie at all. He was actually a melancholy dane. It wasn’t until I started NDT and Colt woke up and became more outgoing and cheerful that I saw he had actually been shutting down.
Now I also theorize that because Colt only had positive experiences in his albeit intense socialization that may be why he has never shown any aggression upon actually meeting the approaching strangers.
Am I making sense?
Kevin would you also mind addressing Bea’s attitude to it all? How she is completely nonplussed by this. She is 10 and 1/2 mos. old now. Colt is 1 yr. older.
temperament with a little “t” has a flaw, this is the nature of the animal mind’s makeup, there must be a gap that is completed by the vibration of the nervous system (and which can thereby implement Temperament with a capital “T”) and this flaw is necessary so that new energy (stress turned into information) can get into the body/mind. So you can see the conundrum, new energy can only get in through the fault line, the place where the individual feels the most vulnerable and so this is also the site of so called “problem” behaviors as well. So when the adult dog starts to heal, you regress the dog back to the state of puppy vulnerability and thus as you go forward you are allowing the puppy mind to become part of its adult consciousness so that it can learn new things. New things becoming part of Temperament as-a-circle (stress triggers becoming wave patterns) is the nature of information and it’s the puppy neonatal mind that learns new things. Thus the more of the puppy that survives into adulthood, the happier the dog.
Yes, by over-socializing a dog in their moment of vulnerability, it just puts an emotional callous over the flaw and now the dog becomes numb to its temperament and has trouble perceiving the essence within the forms of things and so its nervous system can’t easily come into resonance with objects of resistance and you observe the load/overload static electric kind of behaviors, or so called “problems.” So the problem isn’t that a dog has a flaw, it’s that we don’t use their strengths (sensual physical capacity, bite as grounding, flipping polarity, expressing fear through a clear bark, etc.) to help them through moments of vulnerability. We think they need mental stimulation and social skill set building and in this mindset keep on thickening the callous.
Colt never showed aggression when meeting the strangers as fortunately the callous isn’t so thick that he became a confirmed biter via static overload. Remember, all behavior is a function of attraction and dogs are social by nature so when he dissipated enough energy, he could feel again and plug in. Bea is so nonplussed because it all makes “sense” to her because she goes by essence over form.
As her puppy, and therefore her temperament, comes more on line, she will have more energy and will be even more attracted to other dogs, and you should liken your handling as helping a child at the beach deal with that wall of surf they have to get through in order to enjoy the calm waters on the other side. This is where all the handling errors happen and the owner doesn’t facilitate their dog generating a trait-on-demand to suit the other dog. This is also why bark on command is so helpful as it’s a calm way to dissipate fear, which reduces the perception of the incoming surf as a wall of death, so that the temperament can make a trait to complement object of desire.
“There is a crack in everything. That’s how the light gets in.” Leonard Cohen.
Thank you, that all make sense. I especially love “Thus the more of the puppy that survives into adulthood, the happier the dog.” I think because I found NDT when Bea was not quite 6 mos. she is proof of that. And believe you me, Bea was a puppy that folks in this house wanted shut down. Instead I worked with all that drive a la NDT and now folks think she is super cool and respect her like I always have. Though I admit I worried I had gotten toooo much dog in the first few weeks Bea was with us.
“We think they need mental stimulation and social skill set building and in this mindset keep on thickening the callous.” This is really the crux of it all in todays dog world, isn’t it?
I am grateful to you. I’ll keep on pushing.
“We think they need mental stimulation and social skill set building and in this mindset keep on thickening the callous.” This is really the crux of it all in todays dog world, isn’t it? AGREED‼ I think that was the bigger part of Duncan’s issues. I also worried a lot about my mom’s dog, Sister. Fretting that she needed mental stimulation..blah blah, woof woof. As it turns out, she’s a very social girl without any interference from me! Yes it took her a year to really blossom but I think most of that time was needed in order for her to get acclimated and figuring out how she fit and what was safe. She is now an exuberant 5-year old and a real social butterfly! My mom doesn’t do any pushing, coaxing, socializing, etc. She pretty much lets her be a dog♥
I’ve been thinking about a good “Stump the Chump” question, and I think I found a good one:
In one of the Quantum Canine episodes (can’t remember which) you explain a mama dog biting her young not as a correction but as “imprinting fear” so that when they see large prey they know not to go after the strong, healthy ones. Wouldn’t this imply that mama dog is forming an intention, one that also requires her to plan for future run-ins with large prey?
If mama dog ISN’T acting with intention and the fear imprint is simpy a byproduct of her bite, why does she bite her puppies when they get too rowdy?
OK so things are going well here. Time to ask a big question.
Bea will chase cars. Happened the first time when she around 6 mos. old. Instead of hopping up into my car she saw a mail truck coming down the street and gave chase. She went a whole block before another car pulled out and almost hit her and she ran back to me.
I had been leashing her going in and out of the car and anywhere she can see traffic since then until about a mos. ago when I began to look down the road and have the back of the car open for her. She runs straight to the car. I can also bring her in from the car without a leash now after our walks which are 3 to 6 K each morning and evening. Runs straight to the porch.
But I am being super cautious and making sure there is nothing coming. I felt it was time to give her another chance because she is so obedient under other very exciting circumstances, but last week she chased a car when she was with my husband. That got me thinking perhaps I should only manage this with leashing and not ever try to “cure” this dangerous desire.
What do you think? Can it be done?
So the car represent an opportunity to attract, channel and ground Bea’s deepest energy into you, the moose. Hold her on lead while cars go by and gently praise her. Then be still and when she turns to your eye to find a “new negative” engage her in push for food. Eventually, this will morph into push for tug toy and ideally you play push/pull of war. The more intense you can fight her for the toy, the more she can then convert this intensity into a wave function ala push/pull, the more you are becoming the moose in that moment. Then you can have her down/stay with toy twenty feet away from her and circle her while cars are going by (long lead for safety if necessary). Then have a friend drive a car provocatively, while you are in the house and she’s on a down/stay and then call her from the car to the house for push/pull game. There’s a place for “corrections” in all this but first the dog must bite the toy as hard as you can induce her to do.
You know Bea will throw herself at me while pushing food and push with everything she’s got, but tug is another story which I have always found odd given her drive and intensity. She has always been up for tug, she’s a playful sort, but she will not pull from me like she does with Colt. She holds back. If I try to up the resistance she will often drop it. I can entice her to grab again and pull and anyone else would say she is really tugging, but I know Bea. It’s only half of what she’s got and since I also have Colt’s full out attack, push and pull to compare it to I know there is a block there.
I have often thought I do not have the bite out with Bea, but it hasn’t seemed necessary so I haven’t pursued it.
Thoughts?
Another thing I just thought of. I have noticed that Bea does not check in with my eyes much at all. Colt is always connecting through the eyes; when he returns a stick, when he is asking for something, if I “down” him, etc. Bea hardly ever. She focusses on the stick, as in comes in close, chucks it at my feet and stays beside me looking out where I might throw again, whereas Colt will drop it or hand it to me and then run out ten yards or so turn and watch me waiting for the throw. When I “down” Bea she is looking where she thinks I might direct her next. Bea is always ready for the next thing and does not check in with my eyes.
When she was a small pup I taught her to look at my eyes with the treat at arms length given to her when she looks at my eye and she will do that, but not in everyday life.
When she does look into my eyes is when she wants a good rubbing or snuggle and then she is all eyes.
Forgot to mention that stock folk do not want the dog to be checking in visually with the handler. It’s all feel and hearing.
When you live with two dogs, one will be more easily deflected than the other (magnetic) and one will gravitate to the intensity to predatory aspect (electrical) polarity. That’s the rub and what makes two dogs 2X2X2 times as much work, so that each dog can flip polarity when that is called for. Just by living together the two dogs polarize every time there’s some significant change in the environment. That makes it easier for two dogs to live together in tight quarters and will ensure that they approach large prey animal from different set of skills. So Bea focuses on the prey object (stick at feet) rather than at owner as more intense predatory aspect. Getting the bite out will free her up to be able to make such flips in polarity as needed. Try putting the bite toy on rope so that your eyes are far as possible from object when you’re tugging. When she wins, run away so that she carries it toward you, and then also, play keep away with another person, or throw toy on long string so you can pull from a long way away when you don’t have someone to help you. I’m also curious where you learned the eye-contacting method of arms length?
“When she does look into my eyes is when she wants a good rubbing or snuggle and then she is all eyes.”
Are you sure about that, or is that just your interpretation?
OK I will try the bite toy on a rope in the ways you suggest.
I learned the eye contacting exercise the same place I learned the mat work which is akin to your box work. From the book “Control Unleashed”. Speak is also in there I think, but used as a precursor for quiet. I had done a number of the exercises with Bea and Colt from that book before I found NDT.
Donnie_O as I thought about your question I realized that Bea looks directly at my eyes whenever she wants something. She is a dog who asks for things. Colt rarely does that. Ball play being the exception. Bea will ask to go outside just to go outside, ask to come in, ask for her bed to be brought from the bedroom at night if I am still in the office, ask for food, ask to play, ask which trail we’re taking, ask to come up for a snuggle, ask for stroking and scratching. She looks straight at me for all of these things and sometimes makes a little noise that is something like a whisper of a whine, but is more musical. Funny, she sounds demanding, but she isn’t at all. If I say no Bea go lie down instead of doing any of these things for her that is what she does. She will also do anything I ask of her instantly and with verve.
Why do you ask?
I make a point about the eye contact since I introduced it around 1992 or 1993 to a dog training club in Houston, Texas and I’m sure there’s no use of it before that time because these folks were pretty blown away by it. From there I’m sure it must have swept through the competitive training circles. And I make an issue of it not because anyone need care who invents this or that, but because it demonstrates my thesis that the negative (eyes) is access to the positive (food) as evidence of a universal operating system of animal consciousness, that nature is not random and that dogs don’t learn by random reinforcements. Before that time trainers used to spit hot dogs from the mouth to get the dog to look at handler’s eyes, which it really wasn’t, just looking at the mouth. So it’s not just another “tool” for the proverbial tool kit but rather demonstrates that our understanding of animal behavior is inexorably moving toward an energy theory and any training authority who uses the technique should recognize that its efficacy directly contradicts the operating premise of whatever model of learning theory they are otherwise promulgating. This is why the technique doesn’t naturally arise from their models, for example, one doesn’t have to gradually shape the behavior, no clicker is needed, it happens in one instant and no matter what a dog is learning, the pattern of learning ALWAYS fits this template, negative as access to positive. A dog doesn’t learn, “If I do this, then I get that.” He either feels a pull toward or a push from the negative depending on whether or not the predatory aspect can be held in mind with the preyful aspect simultaneously. Therefore it’s not a fixed action pattern because it’s 100 FLEXIBLE to changing conditions because nature itself is configured according to these same energetic parameters. Not to be strident on the matter but any trainer using this technique, even if it occurred to them serendipitously in an epiphany, is nevertheless contradicting themselves if they use terms of dominance or reinforcement theory to define animal behavior. So I argue for authorship of these things in order to make this fundamental point.
haha I have seen some old ladies spit treats for their dogs on the floor.
i liked it because the dogs can smell the owner’s scent and it is like regurgitating and also it can free up both hands.
however, it is not very “old lady like”. so I was surprised that, you know, poshy Kennel Club women with well groomed dogs etc.from that generation would do that.
a dog’s eye movements are difficult to detect with their head being lower and not twisted towards me.
the most obvious eye movement is back and forth between my eyes and the bag of treats sitting a few feet away.
it becomes more obvious when the dogs entire head moves, like when the dog is supposed to pull the scooter and keeps looking back at me
or the dog is in the process of jumping over a hurdle and at the apex of the jump curve, looks behind her at me.
neither is good, it would be better if the dog could keep going straight ahead with me labouring on behind them.
I can believe that someone appropriated that eye contact thing and also the swishing around of the toy as prey, seems to originate from you Kevin.
but then they also do not exactly patent the spitting of treats, or the clicker or that tschht sound that CM makes.
I have this dog door that leads from the house into the yard, sometimes i close it because nocturnal animals enter the yard and the dogs run out to chase them away with lots of barking which at, say, 11 pm is undesirable.
yesterday I saw how one of my dogs did not realize it was shut and ran into it at too much speed. If I paint a couple of large eyes on the slide in door thingy, would that give her a better indication that the door is shut as opposed to when she cannot see the eyes. it is open ?
I am thinking of this because we were talking about putting big eyes on the jackets of the seaworld staff so that they are less likely to be grabbed by the orcas…
i was also thinking, putting big eyes on a car to make it less desirable for dogs who show the inclination to chase them ?
In the “Doggie Zen” exercise instructions the author states that the handler is the gateway to resources. “The dog goes through the handler to get something he wants.”
I must say that I found “Control Unleashed” the most useful training book I had read prior to NDT.
I tried a clicker very briefly when the book first arrived, but just found it unnecessary and really not conducive to distance work which I do a lot of with the collies. Yes worked just fine as a marker and was far more organic.
I understand why you are clarifying.
i bought Click to Calm and thought it was the most stupid book i had ever read.
I gave it over to my clicker training obsessed trainer and told her i could not deal with this book.
she could not believe it but was happy to stick it in her library of such books where other confused students can borrow what they think it useful.
after that i did not go to Control Unleashed. is that even by the same people ?
for the distance work they do with the marine mammals, they use a whistle.
http://clicks.aweber.com/y/ct/?l=A6QZl&m=1cHUifsOXeGsEf&b=0D.0XNTTNxiYHDR9R_VVlw
here’s a link i found in my email this morning.
what fun. punishment based trainers are bad no matter what they accomplish with certain dogs,
inexperienced clicker trainers are good because they nonetheless accomplish things with certain dogs
and if they were better, more computer-like, with less motherese, clicker trainers would accomplish more ?
where exactly is the logic in that ?
At the end of the day you can always find a couple of Poster Dogs that were trained by YOUR method and excel, however you can never tell what they would do if they were trained by another method. so…
what the heck.
it boils down to doing what feels good and what elicits a happy fearless behaviour in the dog. i do not feel good when i spend all my time counting my treats, not allowed to talk to the dog, counting my clicks and generally acting like a robot…
“after that i did not go to Control Unleashed. is that even by the same people ?”
No it isn’t.
Here’s a Stump the Chump question that’s not exactly dog-related, but given that Kevin’s energy theory of behaviour applies to all animal consciousness I thought I’d have a little fun with it and see how it applies to humans. So, my Stump the Chump question is this: why do people sing in the shower?
Bio-mechanically, the spray of water is an intense movement of negative ions and I believe these are an emotional ground (as is fresh snow, dew, mist) and so serve as a conductor of emotion, as a release from the bio-static pressure which is the inevitable consequence of animal consciousness. (Related to why dogs are able to drink more readily out of grounded water than water in steel bowl, breaking the surface tension of reflective water in bowl is emotionally speaking, an electrostatic shock.) So when showering this experience of release in the human’s animal mind, induces the human’s intellectual mind to want to seek resonance with all in the world by singing.
I’d be interested to hear NDT’s viewpoint on why dog’s shouldn’t sleep on the bed. Any chance you’ll write an article on this soon?
I started working on it so coming soon, thanks.
Please, sensai, just as an extra tidbit, would you clarify as to your meaning of “human’s animal mind”? I believe I’m on the same page as you but thought I’d double-check! My take is that you are referring to our emotional center, the feeling part, as opposed to the actual physical brain. How many ‘brains’ do you count? I’ve heard of 4 being postulated (not sure I can recall all 4 for you). Just curious and wanting a connection again.
The human’s “animal mind” would indeed be the emotional makeup, with the displacement medium being the two brain makeup so as to create a “force” of attraction. The Big-Brain in the head is the brain of separation, it’s in charge of survival, hence it has executive function. The little-brain in the gut is the social brain and is the faculty of grounding and erasing the barriers of separation as imposed by the Big-Brain. The “network-brain” is the heart, and it can’t move a muscle and can only communicate with the Big-Brain via the little-brain (via hunger circuitry) and so it is a dynamo not only of efficiency, but of satisfying the network agenda of computing behavior in order to add new energy to the network. Each brain has its own fear response, BB=fear of separation; lb=fear of blockage, heart=fear of collapse. Each brain has its own definition of success, BB=balance;lb=flow; heart=resonance/weightlessness/suspension. Hope this clarifies
Yes, but it also raises more questions: Fear of separation from what? Fear of what blockage? Fear of what collapsing? On second thought, these are not cognitive fears as such but more of an autonomic response? How does one recognize them intellectually (in themselves or in animals) or would we go by feel here as well? Hmmmm…I must be having a lucid moment! LOL I’m also not totally clear on the hunger circuity…the fog’s been in for awhile and I only get clear patches on occasion *sigh*
Built into a feeling, an instinct or a thought, is an internal scaffolding, a structure, a circle, with an East, West, North, South axes and a center. This allows the animal mind to ascertain the source of resistance, so fear of separation refers to a separation from a source. For example, it is instinctual tendency of the intellectual mind to attribute authority to a “Higher Being.” Some might use this to argue against the existence of such a higher being (Dawkins) and yet it may very well be a stronger argument for the existence of a Higher Being. At any rate, the animal mind is organized so as to attribute resistance to a predatory aspect, (which could be either the North pole in the magnetic frame of reference of the negative pole in the electrical frame of reference, at any rate it will either be the head or the eyes) this then cuts the individual off from its own sense of self, and the Big Brain is agitated when it can’t execute actions at a rate of expression commensurate with the degree of stimulation (i.e. balance). That’s the fear of separation. If the source of resistance can be apprehended through the hunger circuitry, then there is a feeling of flow (smooth wave intestinal function), otherwise there is morbid dread, that’s the fear of blockage. If a state of resonance can be apprehended in the heart, in terms of the rate of flow and the source of resistance held in mind, then there is a state of weightlessness, otherwise there can be a collapse (i.e. heart attack literally and figuratively.)
i am just reading this book, it is about the dog’s mind. it says that dogs and even wolves and humans are all neotonic so we are all prone to juvenile behaviour in adulthood. so…i guess that is the little brain making us juvenile >??????so we can overcome fear by feeling young and invincible ????
Thank You Kevin, as always, for your thoughtful clarifications. I’ll ruminate over this for awhile and check back through the site for other comments and see if I can assimilate and regurgitate. You know you’ve got it for good when you can explain it to someone else! That’s my goal. 🙂 Definitely strenuous mental exercise, which is a good thing as I wouldn’t want a flabby brain. So, I like to take my brain out for a walk here every once in a while! LOL
We know that barking is moving energy, releasing fear. Growling is trapped energy. What is whining???
This is a new (annoying) phenomenon in my house with Lou. If he’s on the box, which is almost always, and not asleep he is whining – his head could be down and he’s still whining. It’s not loud, more whimper level noise. His not hurt or sick.
I admit that I have yelled at him to STOP IT!!! Of course, that didn’t work for more than 2 seconds. Frequently I have to move him and his box to the other side of the house or crank up the radio.
What is Lou feeling? What is he saying?? (Yeah, I know he’s saying, Lacey I’m giving you a good chance to feel some rage!) What do I do with this energy??
Right, whining is a low grade vibration from rage that isn’t moving. So take Lou outdoors to the “power zone” and give him an opportunity to become enraged, soften into barking on command, belly rub-a-dub, take for brief walk and then back on the box inside. Alternate these pulses so that he can pick up the rhythm of how energy moves in his new environs. For now, and thereafter, if whining resurfaces don’t give attention via “Stop It” as this is gratifying the need to trigger his latent rage but can’t lead to satisfaction for anyone, but crate more in quiet spot of house. Then when on box have long lead attached and if whines pull dog toward you so that Lou works harder to stay on box. Working to stay on box takes dog out of conflict and neutralizes whining, puts rage to effective use.
Thanks Kevin! More rage… goodness. I’m glad he does it then – Rudy stuffs and then explodes “unexpectedly” when I bring the clippers around. I’d rather work it out as we go.
So, more fear/rage work for us.
At some point you’ll have to soften the “clipper rage” with some table work, when you’re ready.
When people refer to dogs abilities to think, can’t you refute this reasoning because a thought really only exists in words. I mean, when you think of anything, intention or something abstract, it exists in your head only as a concoction of words. So in order for a dog (or any non human) for that matter to have a thought, they would need to exhibit language abilities. Is this a valid argument against thought centered theories of animal behavior?
There is a definition elsewhere of thoughts, which is basically the ability to compare two or more things or points of view to each other, and this would not require the use of language (e.g., visual images, non-verbal auditory information).
I have been remiss in practicing NDT techniques with Happy for awhile, and I am concerned about some of his behaviors, maybe there are ideas for getting through the current impasse. Mainly, I think since he is so sociable and always hungry so rather easy to entice with food I underestimate his intelligence (although I know dogs are supposed to be creatures of the immediate moment without thoughts, I swear they don’t know this). During pushing, Happy seems to be in a pattern of taking the food then immediately questioning not only my motive but my means of giving it to him and refusing to go along with the rest of the training. He’s a dog afterall! It’s not like there is a lot going on in his life that he would mind being manipulated into eating food, right? But there’s too much at stake in his training to not take these issues seriously, and I feel like I’m in a standoff with this man-sized dog. I’m saying these things lightheartedly, but it is actually scary sometimes.
Heather, there was a period where Jinxsie became uninterested in pushing and it seemed that no matter how hungry she just would not do it. This was very frustrating for me and I didn’t know how to overcome it.
If you’re on Facebook, the NDT page has a couple of Kevin working with Honey, a dog-aggressive staffordshire terrier. I found these videos very helpful for a couple of reasons. One, they gave me some helpful hints for getting Jinxsie to express her energy and channel that energy towards me. Two, the videos are also a very powerful reminder that it’s not so much about what we are doing with our dogs as why we are doing it: to get them to fully express their energy around us.
Just to pass along some advice to you that was given to me from Lee: whenever you’re uncertain about what to do, ask yourself 3 questions: 1) where is this energy coming from? 2) where is it trying to go? 3) what, if anything, is it telling me about myself?
You imply this in your post, but I have to ask: are you afraid of Happy or what the expression of his energy looks like? If so, how do you think this fear stops your own energy from moving?
Thanks, Donnie (and Lee), that is good advice.
I’m not afraid of Happy, it is within me.
Fundamentally, I am afraid that the “virtual” experience (ie, wanting things to be like what I’ve seen, e.g., the videos) is not something I can actually experience in my own back yard. It’s a lot of energy/emotion without a clear path to go–I like flowcharts. Going by “feel” “feels” impossible most of the time, so I guess I just need to “be” that and see what comes of it.